What Can We Learn From This?

treenut

Hey Al just a thought, if you new were Walters thread was heading why didn't you just let him finish it without interuppting him?
Just a tad rude I reckon.


ps. Nice story Walter.

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pdbbonsai

What can we learn from this?

1. Patience
2. Mediocre material can be nice bonsai
3. Novice and intermediate enthusiasts can use mediocre material for practice
4. You should be proud of what you do, no matter how long it takes or what other people think
5. mistakes help you learn
6. we all make mistakes
7. That twenty years is a long time to keep a tree alive. another thing to be proud of
8. If you are proud of it. who cares what anyone else thinks
9. after we have been into the hobby for an unsurmountable number of years, we too can look back on what we could have done different, and pass it onto the newcomers....

Thanks Walter for the chronicle of this tree.....excellent history lesson.




Paul

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Carl_Bergstrom

For the most part, Paul, I agree with you, but I want to take issue with this claim.



This is similar to the "if you like it, who cares what other people say?" argument.

I can't claim to speak for everyone here, but for me, doing bonsai is not something I do in isolation from the world. Bonsai (and just about any other hobby I have) is a fundamentally social endeavor, in that I take some of my pleasure from bonsai in the interactions with others - in learning or teaching or discussing, in being amazed by what others have created and perhaps some day in amazing others with what I have fashioned, in simply sharing in a joint pursuit with jointly defined and at least partially agreed-upon goals. I think that enjoying our pursuits in a social context is plain and simple part of being human.

And I admit that I take great pleasure in fashioning a tree that my fellow club members admire...not necessarily because I'm a competitive SOB at heart...partly just because I like seeing their eyes light up when they see a tree that they like.

But really, my point is that doing bonsai is a social activity for most of us (after all, look at our posting habits on this board!). And once anything becomes a social activity, it does matter how others view your work....even if you're not being competitive or participating just to impress others or "win" at the game. Part of what it means for something to be performed in a social context is that you attend to others' opinions, perspectives, and reactions.

All the best,
Carl

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mfp1028

Uh-oh, does this really happen?...

Leesa

Wow - what a thought provoking thread.

I wonder though if it is time to highlight the line between hobby and profession. For Walter - yes - I can appreciate his view to working with only the best material - which should be good enough for international exhibition. However - for the very large majority of us on this forum - bonsai is a hobby - something we do for pleasure - granted it may even be an obsession for some.

Yes - we can strive to choose the very best material and yes we can attempt to use our time well to make the best possible trees -but let's not lose sight of why we choose to do it. If I valued my efforts against international exhibition standards - well - I would be very very discouraged. Can I continue to try to improve my trees and my skills - yes of course. But - I need to keep that perspective or I would not be having much fun anymore.

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Respectfully, Lee Sanner

Carl_Bergstrom

There's a second issue as well - how does one get access to this great material?

I think part of the answer there is that one has to get to get good enough at working with mediocre material that one is willing to drop a substantial sum of money on raw material, or to spend a week wandering the mountains to bring back a single tree. One has to develop sufficient talent and style and artistic ability that others want to enlist one's help with their best material, and to engender the trust of those looking to hand on their own masterpieces.

So yeah, I need to start looking for better starting stock...but I can't just throw out my current trees just because they'll never be any better than Walter's maple. I've got learn something somewhere.

All the best,
Carl

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pdbbonsai

Carl,

I guess I was assuming those that tried their best would be proud of what they created. I too think that it is a social endeavor, and would like it if most if not all I created was well recieved. I do not think Van Gogh painted many or all of his stuff to please anyone. And their are many Van Gogh's I cannot stand. I know apples and oranges.

To me, if and when the final outcome is achieved, and it is truely what I have strived for, then I would not care if Tom Dick or Harry liked it, for the most part they should understand that it began as an idea, was expressed within a lifeform, and put on display for those to look at. Whether they get all gooey inside is not my problem nor what I have set out to do in my bonsai. If they do get all gooey inside, and want to prance around my garden singing to the winds......hey....well you know BONUS!!!.

I do agree with what you are saying, but I think that the artist should be pleased before the viewer of the art.

Paul

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It is essential to experience all the times and moods of one good place. (Thomas Merton)

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bonsaiweb

This is a really thought-provoking thread. It raises, for me, another question. Which is more important, the end result of the training or the process of getting there?

I suppose that when one reaches a level of mastery in technique (as Walter has), that the product is the most important aspect. For me, as a relative beginner, I am still learning so much about the technique that I am really focused on the process. Of course, I want to do things that produce nice trees, but I enjoy the process of developing the tree and learning in the process.

One of my teachers taught me early on that every tree should tell a story and I like the process of playing storyteller in shaping the tree and its future.

It does give one pause to think that in 20 years, when my skills have really developed (I mean in 20 years they *must* develop, right?) that I would look back and think that I had wasted my time on poor material. Then again, maybe it is the process of training a tree like that Maple over 20 years that produces a great artist like Walter! Perhaps if one only works with the very best material, then one never learns the creativity that accompanies working with less perfect stock.

Still need to think more about this one.

Doug

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GaryS

Thanks you Walter.

Sometimes the best thing is to do nothing and just get ready— for what? What ever comes along the next time. :-)

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GaryS