Trident Study Group #1

ripsgreentree

Al: not to worry. I am not angry, just saddened that you would offer all the bad points that you could find about this tree with out offering any suggestions on how to correct them. This is a learning forum not a platform to talk someone down.

Over and over I asked what you would do to correct the defects that you were pointing out. Also "grow baby grow" is not a workshop solution for all that you were talking about. If you look back over your comments you will see that they would lead a person to beleave that this tree had no redeeming value at all.

Also your offering advice on how the tree should have been grown is of no value to the study group as we were dealing with the tree as it was grown. In the future if you want me to respect what you have to offer you might figure out how to offer solutions that can be applied to the material under discussion.

hopefully

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ripsgreentree

It requires an open hand to give and to recieve.

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bonsaial1

While my expertise in bonsai may not be to propagate bonsai, I surely know what I like. We may difffer on that. Thats OK. But when it comes to growing out trees for sale as material, one thing stands clear. The future of the tree depends a lot on what the propagator has initially done to the tree.

In my small bonsai world, There are only two styles of tree. Chokkan , and everything else. All the other styles could somehow be adapted to grow from stock which has twists and turns in the trunk. The tree you posted was broomstick straight for more than 2/3 of the tree's height. While the tree had a great root system and a great lower trunk, the tree started to fall apart after that. The pucker wound detracted from the front, the bottom chop added huge shoulders to the tree, the trunk from that point on had no taper, and the next chop was not that much better, coming off at the side.

I felt the tree having all these bad qualities for the tree now, might not look that bad in a couple of years. We talked about thread grafts to try and help the healing along, we talked about a thread graft right through the pucker, we talked about letting the tree just grow to stretch out the taper. None of these things that were talked about were even talked about with the other members. You just slept on it and hacked the tree back down to 4" high. Now you have a much bigger chop, and still a straight leader, telling me that you want to go with that chokkan again. I think you just set yourself back three years. deja vous.

In a forum such as this, if you are asking for help one has to close the mouth and open the ears and mind. AK

bonsaial1

Sounds like some ideas to me?

bnsaijim

This is supposed to be a STUDY group. Lighten up on both sides.

The point should be less a criticism of the material but more geared to how to make the piece of material the best it can be given the constraints. Sometimes this will be a long term plan as teh with the Trident, but it may be a schedule for refinement for the next show.

Any material should be appropriate- of course the point is not to have to deal with a "dog" every week, or even necessarily unstyled material. Otherwise we continue this trend of everyone being able to style a virgin piece but can't seem to get to show quality...

Each participant should offer his view or strategy- but rather than opinions which leave nothing to study, all statements should have a basis.

IRL I would typically arrange it so the suggestion moves from the least experienced to the most. And EVERYONE has to talk and has to justify their logic.

This forces everyone away from "I like it (or don't ) because I do (or don't) " mindset into justifying their responses based on an artistic or horticultural principle. The less experienced may not understand why something "works" but someone else may be able to explain it...

Once the opinions are offered and debate concluded the owner can then evaluate the options and choose his course, knowing not only WHAT to do but also the WHY and especially the WHY NOT!

Sincerely,

Jim
TX

bonsaial1

I couldn't agree more. That is why I feel that a study group done in real time, will not work properly. Questions get missed, answers don't come, everyone is talking at the same time. I prefer to have them at members homes. We rotate, serve refreshments, BS, work on tree, Have a snack, BS, work on tree. We probably do more eating and BSing, than actual work on trees. I have found that study groups, in my opinion, don't really last that long. They are sessions that may focus on one aspect of the plant. Maybe it needs a branch. The decision may be how to do it, thread graft, approach graft, etc. That may be all that is talked about on that particular tree. The process may or maynot even happen at the study group. This may be done at a later time, in the privacy of the tree owners home.

IMHO, A concenses of what needs to be fixed or improved, How to do it, with a follow up post 2 or 3 months later. That should do it. The session of that thread lasted 3 hours. What was the owner of that tree waiting to hear? AK

ripsgreentree

Hello Jim: I offered this material to be worked over in real time. Preforming the tasks that were requested of me and then photographing the results and then posting so that every one could look. As I pointed out previously this material is potensai. The goal was to see if the material could be improved by the participants and for them to be able to see the changes that they asked for. The final cut was made because one of the participants requested it. I have no problem with this as I can create a decent tree with the trunk and roots that are left. I don't think that I could provide 52 pieces of material to be worked on like this but maby 12 so we will see what I can come up with next month. Hopefully with better results and less controvercy.

respectfully

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ripsgreentree

It requires an open hand to give and to recieve.

bonsaial1

Hey Rip, I agree that you and I argue too much. It is distracting to the task at hand, and not friendly to someone just coming to this forum. We both agree the idea is to make a better tree. I'll submitt this idea:

How about doing the study on the regular forum. Start the thread, post the tree, with a few views. State what you may have envisioned for the future of the tree. I feel that the grower has probably had some thought in this regard anyway. There is nothing wrong with keeping that goal in mind. Let everyone comment on the tree in thier own words with time to formulate the correct text. People need time to express their ideas, not all people type fast, so the questions get out of sync and get missed. That way each person can relate their ideas with maybe virtuals, and not having to leave the room to get more pics and stuff that slows down the process. You have mentioned that the tree was not going to be fixed in a day anyway. Why couldn't the study progress be done over a few days or weeks for that matter. You could also set a time of the evening that you were going to be online. You can use the reg. forum as a sort of chat anyway by using the refresh button. That way everyone could get their two cents in, you could respond to each message, and Matt wouldn't have to post the whole chat on the forum. It would also be simpler to post pics. A lot of forum user's did not get to really particapate in the study, due to not being home or whatever. This way the tree would be there for serious contemplation and a post later. Bonsaial

ripsgreentree

Al this sounds like a good concept, next month I will encorporate your Ideas and see how it works.

thankfully

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ripsgreentree

It requires an open hand to give and to recieve.

Carl_Bergstrom

Sounds like a great idea - I look forward to being able to participate this next time around.

-Old Mister

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