Trident Study Group #1

TreeBay

CHAT LOG July 20, 2002

Brian: hi rips
ripsgreentree: hi brian haw are you
Brian: not too bad, and you?
ripsgreentree: fine
ripsgreentree: are you here because of the study group?
Brian: yep,, thought i would drop by and see whats up
ripsgreentree: so far just you and me
Brian: i would wait a few minutes
ripsgreentree: did you look at the photos that I posted in show and tell?
Brian: i've been checking the site for past 1/2 hr or so and seena few others browsing
Brian: yep saw them this am,, awesome trees
ripsgreentree: same tree
ripsgreentree: It is material that I thought we could start with
Brian: yep i see it is the same tree, somehow i thought 2 different
ripsgreentree: it's ok
Brian: it's healing up from a big cut down there ?
ripsgreentree: This trident is only 5 yrs old at this point
Brian: really
ripsgreentree: Yes this is a major chop and is completely healed
ripsgreentree: First question is what do you think about this chop?
Brian: airlayer or by seed, if by seed thats major growth
ripsgreentree: I acquired this tree as a pencil seedling and field grew it
Brian: the chop is a little hard to see but the tree looks like some reverse taper going on above it ?
ripsgreentree: It has been root cut three times
Brian: hi al
alkeppler: hey dudes
ripsgreentree: Welcome al where have you been
alkeppler: at the nursery buying a magazine
ripsgreentree: brian when we get to defoliating this tree you will see that there is only taper
ripsgreentree: does it have a foldout?
alkeppler: no LOL
ripsgreentree: which magazine has come in
alkeppler: It's the B.V. one on shohin, you already have it
ripsgreentree: cool you know I am alwaye looking for the next issue
ripsgreentree: Al have you checked out the photos in show and tell?
alkeppler: What's up with your tree rip, what are you going to do?
Brian: my offer to buy for $5.00 still stanfds as is
ripsgreentree: Well this morning I was thinking about study group and had the thought that the forum was already set up
ripsgreentree: brian what are you offering $5.00 for?
alkeppler: study group will be hard on the net. too slow and there is down time between corrections
ripsgreentree: Al the tree is there look aat it and make your first suggestion and explain to the rest of us why you want to make that moove
ripsgreentree: If you want it defoliated to see limb structure we can do that
alkeppler: Well for me its hard to see any branches the way the tree is photographed. It's just bottom trunk and leaves.
alkeppler: If you want a formal upright you allready have a good start towards that.
ripsgreentree: You can look at it ask for other photos we don't have to finish this today
Brian: about a inch above the cd case does it turn into a twin trunk ??
alkeppler: The tree right now seems a little tall for the structure thats there, almost ginkoish in style.
alkeppler: What's the other side look like, have you taken a photo of the yet/
ripsgreentree: what you are seeing is a stub of a limb brian
ripsgreentree: I was late for work this morning so I will need to photograph the next side
alkeppler: Have you chosen this as the front since you only posted one pic?
alkeppler: the base looks good. does it flare more under the soil?
alkeppler: Where did everyone go?
Brian : still here
Brian : i bet rips is getting photos ??
alkeppler: Why, I've seen it.
ripsgreentree: There is now a photo of the back of the tree to look at
Brian : yep new post, just found it
ripsgreentree: slip out to show and tell and take a look
ripsgreentree: Al it does not take that long to take a new photo and post changes
alkeppler: yea that was pretty fast
alkeppler: are the shoulders on each side of the tree the remmnets of the first chop?
ripsgreentree: I set the tree stripped some leaves so that you could see the structure
ripsgreentree: took the photo put it in the computer set it up for web ready and posted it
ripsgreentree : The first chop is in the first photographs and yes it give the tree sholders
alkeppler: are there and places that it may bud at the scar area/
ripsgreentree: In the scar aeria its self I would have to thread graft
ripsgreentree: I was thinking of putting a branch right in the center of the pucker
alkeppler: That may be the ticket to help melt the area together better
ripsgreentree: hello jay
alkeppler: hey jay
Jay: Hello... just dropped in
Brian: i tried an experiment, changes size of your photo rip to 600
ripsgreentree: I feel that it would swell out and take the flatnes away from the cut aeria
alkeppler: I like the tree better without the chop in front.
alkeppler: I would graft through the shoulder points and try to get rid of those and keep the scar in back
ripsgreentree: would you like to see this tree from the side
Brian: sure
Jay: Sorry all, just got home noticed rips invite to talk on his tree... I'm sure you haver been at it for a bit...so I will listen in and talk later
alkeppler: sure
ripsgreentree: give me a few minets
alkeppler: talk jay
Jay: Sorry I was just looking at the tree
Jay: Are you discussing the nebari or the upper parts at this time
Jay: Al, is this talk slow to post? I am sending in messages and they are takeing forever to show
alkeppler: ISP's are just slow on the weekends
alkeppler: The nebari is what we have been talking about.
Brian: thats for sure ,, they need to replace there 486's into p-4 's
Brian: al, his tree would like nice setting with your 2 tridents
Jay: I guess, How long has Rips been at it with this tree?
Brian: he posted 5 yrs
alkeppler: this whole site is run from a laptop
Jay: Nice development for 5 years... thats coming from a north easterner
ripsgreentree: the photos of right and left side are on the page
Jay: Well for my two cents I like the right view!
ripsgreentree: You can see how easy it is to look at things as you talk
ripsgreentree: jay why do you like the right view
Jay: The tree has good movement from this view and a real nice lower trunk!!!!
Jay: The movement is subtle but nice
ripsgreentree: you need to know that this tree has serface roots that streach right and left
Jay: Now tell me Rip.... while we look at the pixs are you looking at the tree?
alkeppler: I like the left view, and would chop it down to where that big leaf is and the trunk stops on the pic
ripsgreentree: if you choose the right or left view as the front you are going to have a root running right at you
alkeppler: Oh!!
ripsgreentree: Ok so al you are going for a six inch trunk
Jay:I don't know al, that bump is a bit much!! The roots coming out you could be buried? or would this kill the visual?
ripsgreentree: I can show you the rootas if you like
alkeppler: Did you take into consideration where the roots were when you made that big chop?
Jay: Only if you think it will help
ripsgreentree: That chop was made in the field and you did not know where the dominant roots were going to be
ripsgreentree: before you kick me too hard this is one tree out of 30
alkeppler: Oh
Jay: Some of us are lucky
ripsgreentree: I can still show better view of roots
Brian: i have to say it would take 20 yrs plus in Michigan to get the growth you have
Brian: keyboard is having spelling problems tonight
ripsgreentree: Yes but California central valley has a long growing season
Jay: sure... but this lag is killing me... I think i will leave you to a discussion that will be quicker with fewer players
ripsgreentree: Al do you want to see the tree defoliated or roots
>>> alkeppler drops an expensive concave cutter and crawls out of bonsaiTALK Chat.:
Brian:jay,, its not that slow is it ??
Jay:bye
ripsgreentree: bye jay come back soon
Jay: Oh yea it is... I'm on a dsl and it is crawling!!!!So bye
>>>Jay drops an expensive concave cutter and crawls out of bonsaiTALK Chat.:
ripsgreentree: well how about that
Brian: what the hell ?
Brian: al's still at the forums
ripsgreentree: the last time Al was on the chat he had trouble staying on he may be back
Brian: lets wait a few,
ripsgreentree: have you had any trouble moving back and forth between the photos and chat?
Brian: sooo are you thinking of chopping this down ??
ripsgreentree: hello bonsai boy
Brian: not me , i have two monitors running
Brian:
ripsgreentree: I have the pages on the bottom of the moniter and run between them
bonsaiboy: hi all
Brian: hi bonsai boy
ripsgreentree: we have been discussing the trident that is on show and tell study group thread
bonsaiboy: nice trident maple
ripsgreentree: thanks
ripsgreentree: do you have any ideas on how you would treet this tree
bonsaiboy: my normal user name is craig I got your message rip thanks

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ripsgreentree: what would you do next
ripsgreentree: cool glad that you did
bonsaiboy: whats the time over there its 1am here
Brian: 8:06 est
ripsgreentree: 5:05 PM
ripsgreentree: wow craig yuy are up early
Brian: as a newbie take my opion as a grain of salt
bonsaiboy: so whats your plans for the tree so far
ripsgreentree: they all count if you can explain why
Brian: with the new pictures the tree doesnt look so straight
bonsaiboy: iam a newbe to
ripsgreentree: I am a grower so for me this is about it and now it is up to an artest to fix my mistakes
Brian: movement at the base, but no movement father up
Brian: you need al
ripsgreentree: anooother chop can change the direction
Brian: would make a nice thick airlayer
Brian: could chop just above were leaves are gone
Brian: but you need al
Brian: i'm going to do some phooshop work,,
Brian: brb
bonsaiboy: how about thinning out the branches leaving the thickest at the bottom and trying to reveal more of that beutiful thick trunk
Brian: photoshop
ripsgreentree: If you would like I can defoliate the tree and you can see
Brian: cool
bonsaiboy: great
bonsaiboy: hi brian
bonsaiboy: where do you live
Brian: michigan
Brian: you in the uk ?
bonsaiboy : yeh
Brian: makes for a late night or early monring
bonsaiboy: how long you been interested in bonsai
Brian: couple of yrs ,,active this yr
Brian: you ?
bonsaiboy: me too
bonsaiboy: got alot of learning to do
Brian: theres a lot of learning i figure before potting up
Brian: i'm growing and aking cuttings,, trying to get some size and keep em alive
bonsaiboy: you cant get in my greenhouse for all the cuttings and seedlings that will hopefully make it to a bonsai pot one day
bonsaiboy: do you use any native trees
Brian: i have a few spruce and cedar that are local,
ripsgreentree: the new photos are on the page
bonsaiboy: whats your favourite
bonsaiboy: do you have to go back to the forum tosee photos
ripsgreentree: I have that thread minimised on the bottom of my page so I can jump back and forth
bonsaiboy: my comp is older than most of my trees so its very slow i will go in search of your pic i will be back soon
Brian: hang on ill put in chat

bonsaiboy:great
>>> bonsaiboy sneaks quietly out of bonsaiTALK Chat. :
Brian: heres his other pic

Brian: hows that rips ,, pic in chat
ripsgreentree: When you pull the photos into the chat I can not see them just a piece
Brian: uncheck auto scroll
ripsgreentree: that was cool brian
Brian: wb
ripsgreentree: welcom back did you find the photos
ripsgreentree: hi kathy
Brian: hi kat
Kathy: hi brian, rips
ripsgreentree: bonsai boy are you back
bonsaiboy: hi kathy
ripsgreentree: cool
Kathy: hi bonsaiboy
ripsgreentree: I have a question
Brian: ask
ripsgreentree: do you find the lage time between asking for a photo ant when it is posted to be ok
ripsgreentree : do things move quick enough
Brian: theres just enough time to grab a drink
bonsaiboy: hi all got a bit mixed up there brian could you please send photo again ive lost it
Kathy :a lag time for a photo ant?

ripsgreentree: now seeing the upper chop where do you think the tree should be recut
>>> <ZONG!>; bonsaiboy beams out of bonsaiTALK Chat.:
Brian: have a vit made
Kathy: my browser wont let me see the top of the tree?
Brian: uncheck auto scrol bottom right hand courner
ripsgreentree : there are several photos in the sho and tell thread under study group
Kathy: ahhhh thanks

Brian: too high ??
ripsgreentree: welcom back Al
alkeppler: Well, I saw the start of the race
Kathy: i dont know rips, i kind of liked it the other way
bonsaiboy: is the auto scroll the reason i keep getting loged out

ripsgreentree: so you would like a taller tree
alkeppler: I'll watch the last 25 laps and know everything that happened
Kathy: i like the taller tree
Brian: short and fat,, know bash me everyone
ripsgreentree : cool al jump in any time
Kathy: but i'm new at this game &quot;-)
alkeppler : I don't know where you guys are
Brian: this is al's area
ripsgreentree : brb brian I will post the tree that you want to see
Brian: dont cut it
Kathy: bash...bash.....bash... :-)
Brian: waht for al
Brian: al what do you think ??
alkeppler : well if you STUDY the skeleton, the trunk has no taper for the first 4 inches, then there is a section that is bone straight, cont
alkeppler : the trunk continues staright for the whole middle of the tree, then there is a crook at the top third and a little movement.
Brian: i think the tree looked better before the rest of pics came
alkeppler: The whole line of the tree has no rythem
alkeppler: If you look at the left side pic, there is a bulge but no branch there. if there were you would like the bulge
Brian: branch was there, but hard to glue back on ?
alkeppler: furthermore the whole middle section of the tree has no movement , and you could not make a decent moyogi or chokkan due to the crook at the top

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Brian: i vote low cut,, but not my tree
alkeppler: You could do a apex makes a dive
alkeppler: sorry you could do a chokkan if you cut at the top where the apex makes a dive
Brian: i think it would be interesting to have seen the limbs there he chopped off in the feild
ripsgreentree: brian there is a picture posted that shows the results you are looking for this tree is 7 in from soil line to tip

ripsgreentree: bye the way feel free to do verts to show your expected results
bonsaiboy: hi al i'm just a newbie whats a chokkan?
alkeppler: Why does this tree also have such a big chop showing?
alkeppler: bby: Formal upright
bonsaiboy: thanks
bonsaiboy: rip have you actually made the cut or is it a virtual
ripsgreentree: Al this is another tree
Kathy:what do you mean &quot;a big chop showing&quot; what are you referring too?
Kathy: what part of the tree i mean
ripsgreentree: each tree that I have posted has a large healed chop on them
alkeppler: I know it is
>>>Kathy begs your pardon and leaves bonsaiTALK Chat.
>>>Brian jumps out of bonsaiTALK Chat. :
>>>ripsgreentree sneaks quietly out of bonsaiTALK Chat.
>>>alkeppler sneaks quietly out of bonsaiTALK Chat.
ripsgreentree:wow I lost every one
alkeppler:Why do you orient the trees to highlight the chop in each case
>>> bonsaiboy jumps out of bonsaiTALK Chat. :
Kathy: we all got booted it seems
Kathy: i must go and finish my laundry. goodnite all
>>> Kathy begs your pardon and leaves bonsaiTALK Chat.
ripsgreentree: I don't think that it is intentional I just like to sho all of the defects the shohin can be turned around and the chop is almost gone
alkeppler: Why don't you induce more angle when you chop
alkeppler: If you are going to be choping stuff that big you need to cut at about 70 degrees
alkeppler: sorry my fingers are not hitting the keys
ripsgreentree: I can do that
alkeppler: I think on the shohin tree that the chop is almost straight across
ripsgreentree: I am not offended by healed chops
ripsgreentree: it about 45 degrees far from strait
alkeppler: me either if they add to the design.
ripsgreentree: cool

(cont'd)

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ripsgreentree

roots and tapor

Attached Images

s.g. trident roots.jpg (22.4 KB, 320 views)

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ripsgreentree

It requires an open hand to give and to recieve.

Brian

is theis a better angle to chop

Attached Images

choiiung 3.jpg (14.4 KB, 313 views)

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Brian
Zone 4
Michigan USA

bonsaial1

ripsgreentree : I am a grower so for me this is about it and now it is up to an artest to fix my mistakes

I am going to frame this quote, and hang it in my office.

Rip you really got me with that one.LOL

TreeBay

ripsgreentree: hi brian good to have you back
alkeppler: Do you think that these have been made too fast, with not enough time for stretching out the chops?
ripsgreentree: so al have you seen the defoliated photos and where would you cut the first trident?
alkeppler: let me look again
Brian: something happened got disconeected
ripsgreentree: yes all of us
bonsaiboy: yeah comp needs the chop i think
ripsgreentree: as long as the shohin is in a bonsai pot the chop will not change much
ripsgreentree: brian I posted a shohin trident for you to look at in show and tell
Brian: will look
alkeppler: That is a problem tree for me. I don't know where I would chop it
Brian: oh no
ripsgreentree: well something has to give becaus the upper chop is a bad one
alkeppler: The lower one is not much better
alkeppler: The only thing you can do now is GROW BABY GROW, and hope that it all stretches out
ripsgreentree: Ok it is time to vote shall we toss this tree on the junk heap because of the chops?
Brian : at this time i would like to open the bidding @ 10.00 us
bonsaiboy: i will have it
alkeppler: Well its not junk. Time will tell. I think the possibility for a good chokkan is still there, just not in the next year
ripsgreentree: no one is asking this tree to be finished this year or next this is just potensai
alkeppler: Some of those branches are starting to thicken and have not been wired, the will be hard to correct later
ripsgreentree: It can go back into the field to grow and thats ok
alkeppler: I understand that. But what I was trying to tell you about growing. You can't just make wood. You have to design the tree from its start
ripsgreentree: If I were going to start branch structure I would cut all of the large branches off and start with new buds from the trunk
alkeppler:Branch placemant, taper, curves in the trunk
ripsgreentree: do all bonsai have to have curved trunks?
Brian: nope
ripsgreentree: Al, this is young material and I am still learning
bonsaiboy: how old is the first tree you showed us
ripsgreentree: nothing in this tree is in stone and everything can be changed
ripsgreentree: 5 years
alkeppler: absolutley not. But if they are going to be straight then they have to have taper and this tree does not. it grows 3 inches then a huge chop. then it grows half the diameter of the bottom of the trunk and goes for half the distance of the tree
alkeppler: that portion goes broom stick straight with absolutly no taper
ripsgreentree: Ok so your vote is no good what would you do to correct it
alkeppler: then the tree makes some changes in direction at the top ruining it for chokkan
alkeppler: Like I said. hope it will stretch and lose those shoulders
ripsgreentree: I am asking again how would you correct it
Brian: can the shoulders be cut at with concaves to flatten some and re heal ??
alkeppler: I would work on branch structure now to induce the help in stretching the taper and make it more fluid and not so jerky
bonsaiboy: i liked the photo where it was chopped at the first branch you could see it would take a while but through time the trunk shape would look natural with alot of movment
ripsgreentree: brb I am going to post one last photo

Brian: sorry had too do it
alkeppler:I'm bbq'ing a tri tip and I already burnt the bottom once
bonsaiboy: hi all got to go happy chopping talk to you all soon byyyyyyyeeeeeeee
ripsgreentree: I am back
alkeppler: later
>>> bonsaiboy drops an expensive concave cutter and crawls out of bonsaiTALK Chat. :
ripsgreentree: there is one last photo that shows the foundation
alkeppler: where's the pic
ripsgreentree: sorry you don't look the tree its at show and tell

ripsgreentree: matt has added the entire conversation to the bottom of the thread
Brian: oh no
ripsgreentree: brian why oh no?
alkeppler: That's wonderful. but what has that got to do with all the stuff going on 3&quot; above that?
alkeppler: What do those roots have to do with taper?
Brian: we've been logged every word printed ,, even this
alkeppler: ChickenBrian?
ripsgreentree: gee al I really dont see or agree with all of your problems but I will keep trying
Brian: feel like a guinea type animal
ripsgreentree: don't confess to any thing and you will be ok
alkeppler: You feel this tree has the kind of taper that you find appealing
Brian: how about this angle al
ripsgreentree: well if I didn't like it I wouldn't have started with it

Brian: i have to be careful or they turn x rated
alkeppler: Thats the left view, the only one that I said had any looks
Brian: isn't there enough tree here to make 3 trees ??
Brian: i have a brainstorm
alkeppler: Why would you want to start air layering trees from something that you just took 5 years to create
alkeppler: Why not make something great from the get go since you start with pencil size seedlings?
ripsgreentree: what technique would you use to get it from seedling to here
alkeppler: This might be something you could do if you ran across this material at the nursery and got it for a steal. This man is a propagator and grower.
Brian: i have a great idea
ripsgreentree: Al you say that like I am supposed to know something
alkeppler: You do
ripsgreentree: I am still asking what you would have done to help this material?
alkeppler: You got the technique. now you just need to develop the eye
ripsgreentree: that is so much trash I see as much good and bad bonsai as you do
ripsgreentree: I don't think that this tree is as bad as you are making out
alkeppler: I would have made the first chop sooner. I would have done the first chop at a root pruning so to make the first chop on the back of the tree.
alkeppler: I ask the important questions like if you feel this ois good in your eyes and you have let me know that you find it adequate

Brian: 4 hrs work into that virt
ripsgreentree: Well the field is open to you al when ever you want to come out and help us get things going
alkeppler: I disagree. But then, I don't own it so it a moot point
ripsgreentree: One of the things that I agreed to is to make changes to the material if the suggestions were good ones
alkeppler: not me, What does ansy have to say about this piece of material
alkeppler: Sorry Andy
ripsgreentree: who is ansy?
ripsgreentree: he has no problem with it
alkeppler: Yikes!
ripsgreentree: like I said al sorry that you don't like the tree but it can be changed
ripsgreentree: it was never intended to be offered as finished work
alkeppler: It's not a matter of me liking it or not. This is what you have put up to discuss. I feel that you have better things to come and it would be better to focus our energies there
ripsgreentree: Al I will let you post the next material to work on
ripsgreentree: This material is not as bad as you make it out
alkeppler: I don't have any material to work on. But, I am always looking
ripsgreentree: yes and I am always growing ....good night Al I will talk to you later
>>>ripsgreentree sneaks quietly out of bonsaiTALK Chat. :
Brian: well rips that took care of 3 hrs
alkeppler: When did I say it was bad. I have just listed the shortcomings as I see them. I feel that you have focused most of your questions directly at me like it's some sort of contest

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Lobby :
alkeppler : Oh well, I have to deal with him at the nursery next week
sankastaff : hello brian al
Lobby :
alkeppler : I got to eat my tri tip, later
juliet : howdy
Brian : all you are the expert,, i;m too new to judge on that tree
sankastaff : hello juliet how are you tonight?
juliet : eatin breakfast - good ta
>>> alkeppler leaves bonsaiTALK Chat. :
sankastaff : what ya having
juliet : bacon and eggs
juliet : its 11.20 sunday am - late one!!
>>> Brian sneaks quietly out of bonsaiTALK Chat. :
juliet : geez did i scare everyone away
juliet : lol
sankastaff : as soon as I got here it got quiet
juliet : i have to go now anyway - take the dog for a walk
sankastaff : ok i'm all alone
juliet : sorry
juliet : will bblater
juliet :
>>> juliet sneaks quietly out of bonsaiTALK Chat. :
<ZONG!> sankastaff beams out of bonsaiTALK Chat. :

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Jay

Good Day All,
I joined this chat for a while yesterday. I found the lag time between my sending my thought and its arrival on the list to be way to long. At the time four people were on the chat. My answer to one came in after two or three other comments. Has anyone else had this problem? Can it be corrected?

Oh yea.... very interesting. I enjoyed the info that was given!

J

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Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing