ATM: Juniper Procumbens - Critique

treenut

Now there seems to be some here that initially thought Thomas’s tree was a fantastic tree until reading Walters analysis, now they have decided maybe it isn't so good after all.
Has Walter really opened there eyes to something that they didn’t see before or are they just doubting there own judgment and believing that because Walter doesn’t like the tree there must be something wrong with them because they do.
As Walter pointed out I am a bonsai ignoramus, and don’t know what I’m talking about, does this mean that if I don’t see through my eyes what Walter sees that somehow I should not like what I am seeing?
Maybe in ten years time I could say oh yeah I see it now, but for the time being I will just have to settle for liking what I see because I like it, and not be told to like something because Walter likes it.

David Chauvin

treenut,

"Now there seems to be some here that initially thought Thomas’s tree was a fantastic tree until reading Walters analysis, now they have decided maybe it isn't so good after all."

I believe you were the only one to think it should stay as is, but Thomas was taken a bit back at first. Walter put together a virtual that conveyed his message in minimum amount of time. Much the same way he does bonsai ;-) I know I appreciate the amount and quality of information he freely gives.

"Has Walter really opened there eyes to something that they didn’t see before or are they just doubting there own judgment and believing that because Walter doesn’t like the tree there must be something wrong with them because they do."

No. Thomas' tree was out of scale. The idea here is to improve the tree if possible, using accepted (and sometimes controversial in Walter's case) bonsai conventions. I modified Walter's virt to something more in line with my stage of development.

"As Walter pointed out I am a bonsai ignoramus, and don’t know what I’m talking about, does this mean that if I don’t see through my eyes what Walter sees that somehow I should not like what I am seeing?"

No. But it's always wise to keep an open mind to other possibilities. And remember where and why this was posted.

"Maybe in ten years time I could say oh yeah I see it now, but for the time being I will just have to settle for liking what I see because I like it, and not be told to like something because Walter likes it."

If you're really serious about learning bonsai, I don't think it will take ten years.

Best Regards,

David

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Jay

Random Thoughts of a Novice

This is a wonderful thread about an interesting tree. Lets forget the pot, we all agree it is incorrect.

Walter has given us an insight into the direction HE sees the tree going in. I think the point he makes about the professional artist and, well, the rest of us has much merit. Many of us go for the first impression of the tree we see. We do not dig deep to see what would make the tree 'special'. The tree as it sits is probably years better than anything I have and yes I would love to have it as is ...but.... I see the tree Walter shows us. I did not see it before, but now I do. It is a better example of an old tree that has grown with distress and hardship. The tree as presented looks like an old tree that grew in someone garden, just a bit too perfect and manacured.

Yes, I'm sure some of my beliefs are clouded by the fact that someone of Walters status has spoken, but, I think it just gives me thought not tells me you must like this.

I am pleased that Walter has given me (us) the thoughts of how a true Master would develop a tree, a tree that has already been taken to a pont that many of us have not yet gotten to. But it is good to see the future.

No... I am not trying to brown nose this thing... just expressing my thoughts

Jay

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Walter_Pall

Thomas and all,

I am not sure but this could well be a tree from the Kataoka (sp?) nursery in California. In more than seven years I have come across over 100 of these all over America. I have no first hand information but I am told that all these trees were 'manufactured' by the hundreds and even thousands. I understand that Mrs. Kataoka who is still around selling these was instrumental in making them and cutting them on a regular basis. As I understand, the Kataokas saw themselves a creators of excellent bonsai material besides forming some into masterpieces themselves.

After the internal structure was fixed at a very early state they were pruned with a hedge shear over decades according to the same cookie cutter. Now they are sold as 'Japanese masterpieces'.
They are excellent material, but not more than that. Since they were done in big numbers they were all done according to the same set of cookie cutters. Nothing wrong with that as long as one then wants to go from there and not conserve the 'masterpiece'

They all have these basic flaws: symmetrical, overbalanced crown, too big a crown, scalene triangle instead of rounded top, a bit too much textbook branching. They all have more or less gnarled trunks. Some of them are good to very good and I have seen world class material. As long as the trunkline and the branching is appealing to the person who buys these the mentioned flaws are not important. The challenge is to get rid of them and bring out the inherent quality.

One large nursery owner had purchased more than one hundred of the more expensive ones. He thought that he had the best collection of quality junipers in America and paid me to do a critique. For one grand I told him that all the trees are not even seriously started, just good to very good material and all have the same flaws mentioned and that styling should finally start. He paid and hates me since. :-)) You take your chances and see what happens, as someone says.

A tree critique is not about being nice to trees or people it is about telling the professional truth. I understand that this is not for everyone, but this is their problem, not mine.

best regards
Walter Pall

Whimsical

LOL, no Walter, While I know of you only through your writings and reputation, I have definately noticed that being "professionally truthful" is not an area where you lack skill. And, even from my sophmoric insghts into bonsai, I have noticed that many of the "masterpieces" are just trunks with a ball of foiliage on top. Even, many I have seen from Asia(particulatrly satzukis). To me, and my unvarnished insight, I think no matter how great any aspect(s) of a tree is, if it does not look like a real tree to me, then its not a good bonsai. And, this is regardless of any or all adherence to the artistic cannon we follow. That said, I have no good bonsai, yet.

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Thomas_J.

Walter,
This juniper procumbens was purchased locally here in the Dallas Tx. area at a regular garden center. It was purchased by a friend of mine who I purchased it from after he did the initial pruning and wiring. I purchased it exactly seventeen months ago and it looked like what you see here in the picture. I did the carving and the pinching to shape along with a little bit more wiring. Thanks
Thomas J.

Attached Images

jun lit pot new 4-09.jpg (40.5 KB, 198 views)

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Thomas J.

Carl_Bergstrom

Two words: The Gimp.

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(A few more words: I've suggested the gimp repeatedly in the past, and I'm doing so again...it's free, it's as powerful as photoshop, and its easy to install, even on Windows. Follow the link and stop whining about MS Paint.)

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In love with trees

DavidN

Just wanted to say that this is an excellent thread and I much appreciate Walter's explanations and everyone elses input.

Thomas_J.

One other thing I might add before this thread dies out,is there seems to be an overwhelming agreement that this tree is "too manicured", too neat looking. Is this not what you would find in a Ko Ko Fu show or some other dignified Japanese show? Now please don't take my words out of context and think that I'm saying that this is world class material. Is it wrong to strive for this type of look in a juniper but overwhelming acceptable for the Japanese Black Pine to look "too neat"? Just curious.
Thomas J.

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Thomas J.