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Bonsai ID and Qs

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Old 23-Nov-2007   #1
fishbone
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Bonsai ID and Qs

Hello everyone and well met, this is my very first post. I will start off by saying that I am complete newbie as far as bonsai trees goes. I've always wanted a small one and my wife bought one for me. It was to be a Christmas present but I stumbled upon it in the room where she hid it
On to the questions. Firstly, we're not even sure if this is a "real" bonsai tree. Is there a way to tell? She purchased it from a vendor in the parking lot just outside a nursery in the area, for $60. The vendor told her it is 8 years old. He also told her that the bonsai should be dunk in water enough to cover the entire pot, once a week, and let it sit in water until there are no more air bubbles coming out. He also said the tree should be taken outside for a day, once a week. Is all this accurate?

I took a close look at it. The pebbles on top aren't glued together like you'd find in a Wal-Mart cheapo desk plant variety pots. Not sure what type of soil is in it. Also, on the bottom of the pot there's two holes the size of a quarter roughly, with some netting to prevent the soil from pouring out.
Here's a couple of pics. The tree actually has a faint smell of pine tree to it.
All in all, a nice looking, quality tree.
To sum it up,
does it look like a "real" bonsai?
any way to tell it's age?
watering directions accurate?
what about fertilizers?

Any thoughts?
Thanks everyone!
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Old 23-Nov-2007   #2
Mcspeed
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Hi fishbone, welcome to the madness.

I'll start with this is a juniper, probably procumbens nana.

Now to the bummer stuff, worst probably being this tree NEEDS to be outside to achieve dormancy, if you keep it inside it will be a gonner, look for info on overwintering in our search section, this alone will keep you busy.
Terrible , I repeat TERRIBLE instructions for watering, follow that and you get a dead tree. They need to be watered as needed not on schedule, you will have to check it to see how dry ity gets , then water when needed( when just a little moistness is left). This will mean getting thru the gravel and checking the soil, which by the way should not seem like dirt. These do not like to have wet rots, or to dry out.

If you put out like it needs, fertilizer isn't needed now.

Once you read around this forum and others (check this one for the GREAT articles, they will help immensely http://www.bonsaitalk.com/lug/link_...hp?link=11&c=59 ), you should as you go look in on some of the picture galleries, this will give you some better reference when reading thru different sections, and try to picture what the posters are talking about.

You will find most non newbies do not consider the current style that this has, to be a great bonsai, not a bad start, and if it floats your boat thats great. Decent trunk by the way for a first tree, we have seen MUCH worse.

Ah forgot the bonsai tree question - there is no such thing as a bonsai tree, it is the craft/art of developing a mature looking miniature representation of trees in nature, started long long ago by the Chinese.

Go to the beginners, and FAQ sections and read my friend, there is SO much to learn, especially if you have no horticultural experiance. Then read some more .

Good luck, stick around, and hopefully you will find yourself in a never ending hobby. Don't get discouraged, there lots to learn, and most of us have killed a tree or 12, so have fun, and lets us know how it goes.

Search on the words in blue, and it should get you a head start on finding the info you need. Sorry can't do it here without dragging this out for about 10 pages.
Again Good Luck.
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Old 24-Nov-2007   #3
fishbone
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Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, Bill. As I am reading what you suggested I'm coming up with some questions.
Did not know anything whatsoever about "zones". I live in Nebraska, according to this, I am in Zone 4b, is that correct? Well, here in the Lincoln area, it's more like in between 4b and 5a After reading briefly about procumbens nana, it appears the hardiness matches 4b. If I cannot accomodate it outside somewhere [I am concerned about winds, it gets windy here], would I be OK with keeping it in my unheated garage, next to a window and dropping some snow on it occasionally?
This juniper, then, is best kept outdoors at all times? Will it do OK indoors as well?
You said "the soil, which by the way should not seem like dirt", what exactly did you mean? The soil is black [and moist at this point] and looks like the kind of soil my mother works with when she pots plants. I'll ask her if she can tell what kind it is. What should it not be/look like?
This site also talks about watering it by dunking it into water. Just a case of more bad advice?
Being in the aquarium hobby, I know all about misinformation repeated over and over again, particularly in the situation of keeping betta fish in bowls and such ... Just trying to protect myself from such disinformation. Humidity trays, etc. interesting stuff ...
What exactly is considered "growing season"?
That's it at this point, I'll go do some more reading now

Last edited by fishbone : 24-Nov-2007 at 09:18 PM.
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Old 24-Nov-2007   #4
weeble
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OOOOooooooooooookay, that site has a mix of ok advice, and bad advice. A good hint is the fact that all of the bonsai pictured on the page are freshly pruned nursury material, and NOT real bonsai. Junipers are an outdoor bonsai!

Try this page instead, it has much better information on how to take care of your baby

http://www.bonsai4me.com/SpeciesGuide/Juniperus.html

Good luck!

Maryjane,
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Old 24-Nov-2007   #5
fishbone
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Thanks Maryjane! If I stumble upon another suspect site I'll ask
So absolutely no chance of keeping him indoors? Not even if I keep up with misting it etc? I'd really like to enjoy it somewhere indoors, like on a desk.
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Old 25-Nov-2007   #6
JayC
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Nope, not this tree im afraid. I suggest other trees such as serissa and ficus for indoors and ontop of a desk. It is possible to keep conifers indoors but this requires expensive setups and lighting, misters etc and with all this equipment, you're gonna need a big desk!

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Old 25-Nov-2007   #7
weeble
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Hmm, not really any good chance of KEEPING it indoors, sorry. But you can occasionally bring it in to look at and admire, maybe a few hours a week, or a day or so every month Just remember indoors we generally have far less humidity than outdoors, and far less light. Even with misting (which only raises the humidity for a few minutes, til the water evaporates off the tree) any time inside stresses the tree.

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Old 25-Nov-2007   #8
fishbone
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I will think about how I'm going to keep it outdoors and still be able to enjoy it regularly. Maybe put it up on a window sill or something like that.
Now, I'd really like to get this thing to overwintering. I've read around about junipers and I think I know what I need to do, please correct me where I am wrong:
-I need to give it about 8 weeks of dormancy; should I just leave it for the entire winter?
-I need to insulate the pot in a styrofoam container with mulch; this thing is small, 6in long, 4.5in wide, 2in deep. Can you recommend, based on this, how much mulch?
-need to give it indirect sunlight and protect it from harsh winds

Would keeping it on a window sill/edge work, as long as it's not in the path of strong winds? It'd get a lot of direct sunlight that way though, mainly after 1PM until sunset.
Location, please tell me what is best. Unheated garage by a window or outdoors, maybe under my deck, where it would get snow on it etc but not any wind? I checked and my garage is abour 2-3 degrees above outdoors temp. Basically right now it's 34 outside and 36 in my garage.

Is there going to be any issues with just taking the juniper outside just like that, from 70-degree weather to sub-40?

Any other particular photo I should take to get a good ID? Or do all Juniper variations pretty much require almost identical conditions? If needed, I can also provide a picture of the place in the garage I had in mind and the one under the deck.

I've read that Junipers can stay green for weeks or months after they have essentially died. This worries me because to me this is like a plant that doesn't "talk back". How would I be able to identify signs that the plant isn't liking one particular thing or another?

Last edited by fishbone : 25-Nov-2007 at 02:46 PM.
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Old 25-Nov-2007   #9
Pearl
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Fishbone,


The worst thing you can do is put your Juniper Procumbens Nana, is inside a house or office. Although you can do it, but only for a short period of time, the less the better. Your baby Nana would rather be left outside year round. Being you live in Nebraska, it will be impossible to leave outside. Your Nana shrub, known as a "whip" should be left outside as long as the tempature is 40 degrees or above. If it gets 39 degrees or lower, it needs to go in a closed garage with the pot wrapped with insulation. As soon as the temperature gets back to 40 degrees it needs to go back outside and away from wind. If during the spring and throughout summer to earlie fall your nana starts to turn yellow, you will need to give it liquid iron, every 4 to 6 weeks is good.



Here is a video that will prove what they told you about watering is totally false.

http://www.bonsaichannel.com/mrBonsaiWizard1.html

Here is another link from the bonsai channel that may help you with other questions. They cover all aspects of bonsai. http://www.bonsaichannel.com/

Have fun
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Old 26-Nov-2007   #10
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Hi Fishbone...

One thing you'll find about bonsai... when a tree gets bedded down for winter (especially where you are) you need to just let it be. Unless you have a species which can tolerate being indoors (I say tolerate, because there is no such thing as a tree which WANTS to grow in a house), you have to be pretty patient in the winter as your trees get their rest. And even having said all that, indoor tolerant species have their own issues to consider. ie misting... humidity trays.... sufficient lighting... balanced temps... air circulation... not being eaten by the household pet... etc. lol

The most important thing you can do for your tree right now is protect the roots by putting it in the styro container you mentioned. I just get the ones from the grocery store, and cut a couple one inch holes in the bottom, then I fill it several inches deep with mulch. I put the tree in, and fill up around the pot until it's an inch or two above the soil of the tree. Going up the tree trunk is fine. It's very easy to remove the bark come spring. I take the tree and immerse it into a tub of water very gently, and all the bark mulch floats right off.

Because you have kept it inside from the sounds of it... putting it suddenedly outdoors may shock it... climatizing the tree by putting it into cooler and cooler spaces over the course of a week or so would be best. So a cool room, for a few days, followed by an unheated but enclosed space... followed by esposure to temps which will pull it into full dormancy, would be the safest thing to do.

As an aside.... I have friends who live in the midwest/central states who will use straw bales to create walls to act as insultation and wind breaks. Then they cover the tops with clear plastic held up by wood slats. It holds in the heat from the earth to a degree and provides the protection their trees need. Of course, you only have the one tree, so thats a lot of effort. But in the future, should you get more trees, that may be an option for you as well.

Good rule of thumb to understand... as long as you protect your roots well, and prevent wind damage, the tops CAN be exposed to freezing temps. The notion of not letting the tree be in temps below 40 degrees, is not completely accurate. It can handle it. But given where you live, the combination of weathers (high wind, and deep cold) is what makes it a tricky balance.

I've had my junipers, and all of my outdoor bonsai for that matter, exposed to temps in the 20s and even the teens. But they were out of the wind, in insulted styro boxes and mulched. My trees stay out all winter long.... protected..... but out. I've had no trees die from exposure to cold of that nature, though I do recognize that your winters are more extreme than mine.

Definently show some photos of the places you were thinking of sheltering it... that would make it easier to advise you on what would make your tree the happiest. Light is important, even if it's afternoon light. Though the growth on a juniper is pretty much nil in the winter, unlike deciduous trees who lose all their foliage and thereby their ability to photosynthesize, there is still a small degree of activity going on.

Easiest way to know if your juniper is happy is that the foliage remains tender or flexible. The new growth you'll get in the spring should be a very vibrant green, and very tender. How you'll manage its growth is by pinching the tips of that foliage between your thumbnail and your forfinger. If it is a dull green color and brittle/crumbly/snaps when you touch it, it's a good bet the tree has died.

Iron chelate can help with yellowing as was mentioned, but it's also good to make sure you are diagnosing if there is a deeper problem first. Knowing the condition of your roots is more important than trying to fix the cosmetic issue of iron deficiency. Because by the time you figure out that the yellowing foliage has not righted itself with the boost in iron, it'll probably be dead.

To that end you'd be well advised to pop that tree from it's pot in the spring, after freeze danger has passed. Look to make sure it isn't overly root bound, and address that problem if needed. It may need nothing, but it's always best to know whats going on under the soil. But there's a bunch of time between now and then to figure out how best to address your tree's needs in that area.

To answer your question about junipers... no... they do not all live by the same dictates. They vary by region and envoirnment as much as any species of plant does. Some confirs can live in the south others can not... etc. Some junipers live in very dry conditions, and don't like high humidity very well... and others thrive in it. Your juniper looks like a fairly standard procumbens nana which is normally offered by vendors. It would be unusual for them to offer other kinds as most uninitiated people recognize procumbens nana as iconic of bonsai, even if they have no idea what it is.

Well enough for now... Sorry to have gone on so much.... but you've asked a lot of good questions... and that warrented a lengthy response.


Welcome to the family.

Kindest regards,

Victrinia
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