Once & for all, junipers inside yes or no?

Min_Rizor

I know I don't count, having barely any horticultural skills... but my second juniper survived the end of the summer being simply in a southwest window. Knowing that I bought it from a big-box store where I found it sitting in a dim environment, I guess it appreciated what little light it could get. And I still don't know how it's still living given the fact that I've been strictly told and nagged at that it would ONLY survive outdoors (I've had it outside since mid to late November, as to achieve dormancy). But it's always been madly humid in the summertime in my area... maybe that had something to do with it? I'm pretty sure that the poor thing got even greener in my posession, even while indoors. I DID give it a bit of extra light from a fluorescent tube... but I still don't know what I did right.

It's presumably a very young Chinese juniper, which I concluded after checking a bonsai picture book with a species section in it: "The Complete Book of Bonsai"... although it only showed a more mature needle structure in a photo of a clipping. It seems to be potted in a surprisingly half-ways free-draining medium with bits of hard-fired clay. Most of the stuff looks like a rich dirt instead of a special bonsai potting medium. I watered it like crazy for a while in the beginning, not knowing standard procedure. But I suppose it needed it in hindsight, considering where I bought it. Also, I checked if it was rootbound before the growing season was up... probably a bad idea, but it surprisingly was not outgrowing its pot yet, considering its status as a mallsai. It still lives, aside from a broken branch that I hopelessly tried to help mend at the end of the growing season. Gonna trim that once I know exactly which parts are totally dead... but no matter. I'm deviating, as usual.

Anyways, I probably hold no secrets. Move along!

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<JPolito[stuff]>yor bonzai is always dying
<JPolito[stuff]>take it to the vet or something
<MinRizor>There are no bonsai vets. D:

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rockm

"And I still don't know how it's still living given the fact that I've been strictly told and nagged at that it would ONLY survive outdoors (I've had it outside since mid to late November, as to achieve dormancy)."

It's living because juniper is tough. That's why this species is staple of "mallsai" sellers. It can be abused, kicked around, not watered, overwatered, whatever, for some time before it kicks off. Even in death, juniper remains green --making some people think it's still alive when it is long dead. They are even sold dead by unscrupulous sellers. The buyers don't realize they are buying an ex-juniper, because it's still green.

It takes months for stress to show up in this species. When it does show up, it usually means the plant is pretty far gone.

By the way, junipers don't need dormancy...Junipers need to be outdoors for a variety of horticultural reasons. They are high light plants--they like open deserts, alpine sites and virtually any area that gets direct sunlight. They need humidity and air circulation that simply can't be achieved indoors without specialized equipment and/or a special room to house them.

Graydon

Um .... not so sure you are correct in this statement. You are (to my experience and book reading) partially right. Putting a conifer in a dark place will not induce dormancy - it will kill it due to lack of light.

Now putting a conifer in a dark and cold place will put it in dormancy but you have to follow very specific guidelines. It must be the proper season for cold (middle of summer is no good). It must be the proper temperature (below 34 degrees and with some cultivars below zero for a short period). The funny part is once they hit the degree they are looking for light does not effect dormancy. Lights can be on all day and night and the tree does not see it. Photosynthesis takes place in a range - for example (and this is an example for this post) between 34 degrees and 110 degrees. Below that and it's lights out. Above that and again it's lights out. Why? Because the plant is shutting down to save energy over the winter and during the harshest periods of heat. It's called survival. They do not take in water hardly at all and they do not transpire hardly at all. No photosynthesis means no food needed either.

How do I know this? Let's say I am growing plants that should not grow in central Florida. White pine, japanese larch and soon to add ponderosa pine. It has taken a long time and a lot of research to figure this out. Is this the best thing for the trees? No. Does it work? For now - ask me in 10 years if it is still working.

All you need is a cold room capable of getting down and holding at 34 degrees and a freezer that can go at least to zero. And a very good schedule system so you get the amount of time each cultivar needs for dormancy at the right temperature and time in the cold room and in the freezer.

One last point - pines have 2 growth spurts per year. One as spring rolls around when buds become candles and elongate (after winter) and one as fall starts the new buds form and set for next year (after the hell we call summer). My opinion is they have 2 dormancy periods - winter and summer. The japanese graft black and white pine in July with a higher success rate than winter grafts. Must be dormancy? Pines get no leg up per say - nothing I have grows slower.

Sorry - this post has nothing to do with juniper other than if you try hard enough and come up with all sorts of crazy ideas anything is possible. But keep junipers outside - OK?

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rockm

"Putting a conifer in a dark place will not induce dormancy - it will kill it due to lack of light.

Now putting a conifer in a dark and cold place will put it in dormancy but you have to follow very specific guidelines."

I guess I'm not getting it. Which is it?

"All you need is a cold room capable of getting down and holding at 34 degrees and a freezer that can go at least to zero. And a very good schedule system so you get the amount of time each cultivar needs for dormancy at the right temperature and time in the cold room and in the freezer."

How much does that cost to do? With enough refrigeration equipment and frozen herring you can keep penguins in Mexico City, but is it worth the trouble and money?

Graydon

Kinda funny but it costs me nothing but my time. I have a friend with a facility for the storage of plant bulbs. It works out so that I catch it during the almost empty time of the year. The only down side to me is my trees are gone from home for a while.

As far as penguins in Mexico City - they do have them there. It's called a zoo. You know - a place where all sorts of animals and other living things from all over the world live in exhibits for the education and entertainment of the people who visit.

One could make the same argument to anyone who lives beyond the tropical zone, grows tropicals and has a heated greenhouse. It must cost a fortune - why bother? For the enjoyment of the plant!

Sometimes people push growing zones a little and it works. Sometimes people push zones a lot and it works. I am simply pushing zones a little backwards from the norm.

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rockm

"As far as penguins in Mexico City - they do have them there. It's called a zoo. You know - a place where all sorts of animals and other living things from all over the world live in exhibits for the education and entertainment of the people who visit."

That's kinda the point I was making. Zoos are either publicly funded or charge admission to support themselves and the support structure for the animals. My point was, that for most folks who don't have access to rather expensive freezers and chilling equipment, cold storage for temperate bonsai in a tropical climate could be a little more than they bargained for.

"One could make the same argument to anyone who lives beyond the tropical zone, grows tropicals and has a heated greenhouse. It must cost a fortune - why bother? For the enjoyment of the plant!"

This isn't really true, since tropical plants (at least the more hardy of them) don't require more than what humans require in the winter. They stand a better chance if they have additional lighting, humidity etc., but by and large many of them can simply be put in a well lighted place indoors and just kept watered until spring rolls around.

Graydon

Yeah. Me thinks this is becoming too much of a rant for an indoor/outdoor juniper thread.

Will you turn off the lights when you leave or do you want me to get them?

Thanks!

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rockm

Um, Since you turned em back a few posts back, you can flip the switch.

Graydon

*click*

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