Newly Repotted Zelkova "Serrata"???

Loaderbull

Hi all,

Well from the subject line, I can't recall the last part of my Bonsai Tree name! It has Serrated leaves, maybe it's a chinese Elm, i'm not really sure...from the pictures I have seen it does indeed look like one.

Anyway, I have repotted it (as soon as i got it home) since buying just over a week ago. The pot is bigger, leaving about 1.5inches around the pruned roots.

In the past 3-4 days the leaves have turned yellow, it started off with a few, now it is about 20! I have since pinched them off, as much as I can.

I watered the Tree in thoroughly straight after re-potting, and have given it a sprinkle today. The leaves are sprayed once or twice a day too.

Now to me it is 1 of 3 things (or maybe 2!);
1 - Overwatering (but it has had 1 good soaking and 1 sprinkle since i bought it)
2 - Underwatering
3 - Dying back due to the recent repotting/root pruning

I cannot think of what to do next. It gets all day light so that can't be the problem.

Any suggestions would be very welcome,

Thanks, Paul

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Jonny D

Hi Paul,

A little more info. would be helpful, where did you get it from?
Why did you feel it was necassary to root prune?
What state were the roots in when you repotted?
What soil mix did you use?
Where abouts are you keeping the tree? If indoors where abouts?
How often are you watering? are you doing this to a routine?
Have you fertilised? (this should not be done imeadatley after root prunning).
Is this your first bonsai?

I'm relucant to tell you the information for fear of killing your tree, so please do not consider this the definative correct thing to do, but I will try and give you some general info.

1. There is quite a big difference between Zelcova Serrata (Japanese Elm) and Ulmus parvifolia (Chinese Elm) in this country, not so much in terms of leaf appearance but growing conditions (you need to try and find out which you have). Zelcova are considered outdoor trees and chinese elm are boarder line indoor/outdour I would personally consider them outdoor (under outdoor conditions they will likely lose all there leaves during the autumn whilst indoor will retain theres or only use some).

2. I have always found with Chinese Elm they are very tempermental to changes in location whilst indoors and the slightest movement in their postion will result in leaf drop.

3. For opitmal growing conditions indoors grow lamps are required.

4. although your tree is getting all day light rember trees like plants trees require air circulation!

Thats as much as I can think of off the top of my head but i am sure there is more, try and answer the questions above and i'm sure the board will give you the help you require. Also do a search of the boards for somingthing like chinese elm/zelcova or indoor chinese elm and i would think that will also turn up some information.

Cheers Jonny.

Loaderbull

Hi Jonny,

Ok i will try and answer your questions;

I got it from a Garden Centre near Worcester (not specialist)

The reason I Root prunned was that I read in a book (Craig Coussins i think) that you should prune the thicker roots, leaving the thin new shoots to grow, so i did! (The tree was pot bound too).

The roots were in good condition.

The soil mix was a small bag of 'Bonsai Soil', mixed with some Horticultural Grit in 4/1 ration (Soil/Grit).

The tree is now further away from the window, not right on the windows sill.

I water when the tree needs it, scrape the top soil off to check how dry the underneath is, if it's dry then i would water.

I haven't fertilised as i know this can 'burn' the roots straight after pruning.

The tree was sold as an indoor tree, but the label that came in the soil is gone, i was certain i kept it but cannot find it for the life of me!

Thanks for the quick response,

Paul

DNA Perfect

For the time being, until you get more information about what plant you have, I would do a couple things. Unfortunately, I don't know what the weathers like where you live. If possible put the tree outside. If it is really sunny (like here) don't place it in direct sunlight. (if its snowing..well...) Since you've had it a week or so (?) and only watered 1 1/2 times since root pruning/repotting. I suspect it would need more water than that.(?) Research the species of the tree, and fertilize accordingly. Also don't for get how much stress the plant has recieved lately and is bound to drop some leaves. You might not have to worry. Ive had many trees stress, defoliate completly, and then come back with much vigor. Your soil might need more drainage. Bonsai mixes here tend to be loumy. If you have access to akadama, consider using it in your mix.
Sincerly,
Ken

Treebeard

Hello there Loaderbull,

If you're unsure of the "serrata" name, I have seen Chinese elms labelled in garden centres as "Zelcova schniederana" (sic), yours might be one of those. I think these type are more suited to indoor cultivation, as opposed to "Ulmus parviflora" labelled ones, which I have read are far more suited to outdoor cultivation.

Either way, I would be very surprised if a garden centre was offering true Zelkova serrata bonsai.

If you search the web for Zelkova, remember the K...

Regards,

TB

__________________
"Do not be hasty, that is my motto"
-JRR Tolkien, The Two Towers.
-----------------------------------
christopherguise.co.uk

Loaderbull

Hi Treebeard,

Thanks for the reply. I have found the label and it is 'Zelkova Schneidria'.

I have thoroughly watered the tree now, more yellow leaves are still there, is it wise to just pick them off? Just a tap and they fall anyway so obviously dead!

I hope the tree will come back with more vigor after this period of leaf drop. When do you think i should feed the tree now? When i do, should it be full strength or half etc?

The weather here is about 7-10c outside, it's a beautiful day, blue sky, but surely a bit cold for a sub-tropical tree?

Thanks to all so far,

Paul

Jonny D

Hi Paul, it looks as if we are making some sort off progress here, the board is very god at that....

So we've established that you have a chinese elm (i've never heard of it being labelled like that TB), the problem with buying bonsai from garen centres and shopping centres is that they are often poorly looked after whilst they are in the garden centre as know one there really knows what they are doing and added into this the type of tree that they sell has been mass produced for the consumer and therefore little care has been taken (if you look around the boards you will often see the term mallsai, refering to this type of tree a pun on the american term for shopping centre and bonsai). So although they look healthy whilst there when people get them home put them in to there central heated houses, with little knowledge they quickly die. However, that is not to say that all is lost with your tree.

you said the roots were in good condition which is good when you repotted, bonsai soil need to be well draining usually quite gritty, if i had the tree i would have put it in something like John Ines no. 2 with the same amount of grit 1:1 ratio (Ken I really feel that akadama in this instance is not appropriate, I don't use it and i'm approaching 4 years in bonsai, not only that but it can bring with it a whole host of other problems, is expensive and there are several types out there). However, do not repot the tree again it has probably all ready gone through enough stress, if this time next year it is healthy you can consider repotting it then.

As i said in my earlier reply indoors I have found that chinese lelm are tempramental to change in position indoors and will often drop leaves even just moving them slightly, once you find a spot it like leave it. A lot of people use grow lamps indoors as the light they recieve is not enough this also helps to keep the tree healthy. At this time of year, it is my opinion that a window sill is probably ok, the sun we get at the moment is not strong enough to burn the leaves through te glass. If it were my tree i would gradually acustomise the tree to outdoors during the spring (protect it from sharp frosts, snow and bad weather until is acustumed) and then i would make it an outdoor tree from then on (april/may time) all year round. You can continue to keep it indoors if you wish through out the summer but you must rember air circulation (also rember this while it is indoors now, best place is an unheated room as central heating drys the air and reduces air circulation).

Watering it when it needs it is correct, when i kept an elm indoors I use to just touch the top of the soil, if it was dry i would water, if not i would leave it a day. I would make a rough geuss at this time of year that every 3-4 days would be approprate, maybe more maybe less, use your judgement, this will likely be required to be stepped up in summer.

DO NOT fertilise now! leave it at least 4 weeks for the roots to reestablish themselves this will also coincide with with the start of spring. normal strength should be fine (what ever your fertiliser bottle says).

Lastly the continuing yellow (yes it is fine to keep removing the dead leaves) may just continue it may already be lost (this may have been your fault but may also be the poor conditions in the garden centre, you don't no how long it had been there), or alternativley it may stop and recover and put out new buds. As I said before please do not take my word as gold, others may disagree with what i have said or using what i have told you here may kill your tree.

Hope i've some what helped.
Jonny - Sorry bout the essay! (oh and I know TB has one or two chinese elms, look in his gallery!)

Loaderbull

Thanks Jonny,

I will do my best to keep my tree alive, with yours and everyone else's help i should do so.

The fertiliser i have is 10-6-6 i think, so will feed it at the beginning of Spring as suggested.

Hopefully post back when the tree begins to look more healthy, thanks again,

Paul

Loaderbull

Hey all,

Good news, my tree is budding all over, after 40% leaf loss, now it is thriving again! Well chuffed.

It looks like it lost some of the leaves through stress of re-potting, then as the roots are growing it is now throwing out new shoots everywhere.

Giving this tree special care and attention has really paid off, i will post some pic's when it looks good enough to.

I gave a very week Bonsai feed of 3.5-3.5-3.5 NPK today, it said on the back of the bottle;

"5ml per 1litre of water", well i have a 1litre watering can, so i put 3.5ml in per 1litre, just a little less than stated.

Thanks for the replies,

Paul