pottery surface treatment

Joanie

Yes, you are right to caution people, Boon. Oxides aren't harmless. A spray booth and mask are very good precautions. Glazes are also dangerous to spray, since they contain silicates which can cause irreversible harm to your lungs.

Could you use a sponge instead of a brush? A natural sponge, like a little silk sponge? It might be easier than making up a batch of oxide, ball clay and water that is big enough to dip a big pot in.

Joanie

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Dale Cochoy

"But the oxide I used, is a very dangerous inhalation hazard, which would require an industrial mask."

Joanie said:
"Yes, you are right to caution people, Boon. Oxides aren't harmless. A spray booth and mask are very good precautions. Glazes are also dangerous to spray, since they contain silicates which can cause irreversible harm to your lungs"

Boondock,
I hope you are also being very careful when you are using a sanding block on those sides/edges. The clay dust is VERY VERY dangerous!
Dale

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If you want to be Different....
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Dale Cochoy
Wild Things Bonsai Studio
Yakimono no Kokoro Bonsai Pottery
Hartville, Ohio

Boondock

I wear a dust mask that you can buy in home improvement stores (the white paper type), and I only sand greenware outside. I have been warned about siliconosis, which can happen if you breath in clay dust. thank you all

I will try the sponge idea. Dipping pots makes a very uniform coating, but it does have limitation.

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Joanie

You might want to pick up a better mask, because the silica particles are veeery veeery small. They aren't even effectively stopped by some HEPA filters. That's why they are so bad.

I have the kind with the two little side thingies, it's made from rubber and forms nicely to the face. And leaves really funny marks around your cheeks. Look for a mask specific to particle dust, and get the best that you can. Uncomfortable blasted things. They fog up your glasses, and make you sweat, but when dealing with stoneware greenware you need to be careful. We want you to make lots and lots of pots for many decades to come.

Joanie, a fussy mother hen....

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gregb

Send your ugliest pots to me...I can find a use for them

Dale Cochoy

Boondock,
You might notice that I deleted my first complimentary message, that I felt I should make, at the start of this thread. I thought about it/this quite a while since yesterday and decided I should be truthful at the risk of being thought otherwise by artists I know, or even possibly thought of as mean.
Anyway, here goes.
After I looked closely at the pictures of the two pots you posted yesterday it was obvious that you were block sanding the greenware pots. The opened grain and grit pieces missing from sharp edges was a true sign of this. After a few questions/answers my thoughts were proven out. After thinking about this for a while, and deciding if it was actually ANY of my business, I have some comments.
Aside from being dangerous ( and taking a ridiculous amount of time) sanding geenware pots is generally not thought well of by potters. Believe me, you were not the first to think of this. Heres how I know.
In the late 90's when I started making bonsai pots , and before I got my first kiln, I had a local potter/bonsai friend ( who, BTW,won one of the first place positions in the 2nd NBF pot competition the year after I had won a 2nd place in the first one) fire some of my first slab built shohin and mame containers which is what I first started making. I had sanded the sides, rails, etc. of a pot that I had broken a chip out of and then repaired with clay mender. I liked how it came out so I did it to several other pots. I mentioned this to him. He frowned, and then he told me what I just told you. Sanding is generally frowned upon as a means to have a nice clean, straight pot. It is a side-step to actually building a nice clean,straight pot. I stopped immediately, and began working on the skills to get me where I wanted to be. I never looked back, but still have one of those pots saved here at home.
I haven't seen, at least I don't think so, another sanded pot until I saw these. I think you would be hard-pressed to find a hand-made bonsai pot at any bonsai convention, US or otherwise, that has sanded pots for sale, except possibly by newbies to the art. The occasional sanded/ground foot bottom to remove glaze and level is perfectly acceptable however.
As possible future competition it really doesn't matter to me if you continue this method, but, as a fellow artist I thought I should mention it. This is all probably a mistake on my part!
What you, and other newbies, need to concentrate on is getting down the techniques to produce the art as it should be done, not try to fool people in a roundabout manner. You need to learn how to construct those walls thinner and get them dryed, fired and completed without warping. I understand the attraction to obtaining straight walls, etc. by making them real thick, but that is not the solution, just as sanding them is not the solution to make them flat and crisp. Practice and work and more practice is the solution. MANY things effect your outcome and these are the things you need to sort out.
You mentioned in your opening that you had decided to make a hand-built pot look hand-built and not like molded pots you had seen elsewhere. At least this is how I took the statement. Perhaps you were actually talking about hand-built pots that didn't show any flaws? Either way, you defeated your purpose there, you produced a sanded pot that looks like a sanded pot with thick walls to any "in the know" potter. I'm not quite sure how you thought you were making them look "hand-made" moreso than any other potters hand-made pots. The hand-made look doesn't come from sanded open-grained clay with chippy sharp edges. It comes from an individuals personalized techniques that leave his mark , or style, on a nice piece of art.
This is akin to most things in the bonsai art, and any other art I would imagine. Side-stepping the needed skills just doesn't produce quality items that are appreciated by folks who appreciate the art, or any art.
I seem to sense this a lot in peoples ( on the net) descriptions of their sloppy wheel thrown pots as "looking hand-made" . Well, a sloppy pot is a sloppy pot, it doesn't look hand-made, it looks ....sloppy! An artist needs to know how to throw a perfect pot first, then if you want to stray from the norm...knock yourself out. If you look at the body of work of any great potter you see perfect along with the "contemporary or rustic" ( for lack of a better term right now) look that is adopted in certain circumstances. You don't see sloppy work continually. As I said before, folks "in the know" see this right off.
I'll bow out of this now that I've given my opinion. I hope you take it in the way I meant it since sometimes I don't come across too well with criticism and on this forum criticism is often not understood in the light it was meant.
Before I go, I'll leave you with a picture of a pot from 1999 ( I think) that was done the same way so you will realize that I know from where I speak about past experiences. This pot was selected by Levon from the many pictures I sent him for his book. I still have this pot on my shelf here. This was one of my last sanded pots.
Regards,
Dale

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__________________
________________________________
If you want to be Different....
You have to DO something Different!
__________________________________________

Some people NEVER take the time to do a job right the first time....
but, they always seem to make the time to do it over again...
____________________________________________
Dale Cochoy
Wild Things Bonsai Studio
Yakimono no Kokoro Bonsai Pottery
Hartville, Ohio

Joanie

Dale,are you referring to the very first pot that Boon showed in this thread? Personally, I like the effect a lot. It isn't just sanded to smooth it out, it really has some intriguing texture. The grog wasn't just dragged across the surface, at least it doesn't look like that. The surface texture gives it a very sculptural look. I often buy pots on the basis of their tactile appeal.

I'm not saying that sanding is a good idea, but then again there are many methods of doing ceramics, just as there are many methods of doing bonsai. I've seen really excellent sculptors use methods that they wouldn't necessarily teach or recommend, because it gives the effect that they want. Sometimes they keep it a secret! "Do as I say, not as I do." Old potters have shortcuts, and although they value ability, they usually aren't above a few side tricks.

I remember going to some greenware classes at a local pottery, and the lady said " We NEVER use water on our greenware!" Well, maybe she didn't, but plenty of other people do, and if it's part of the way they work, there's no harm. A little water to smooth the surface and lay down the grain isn't a bad thing, it's only bad if it's overdone.

Just my two cents worth.

Joanie

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Victrinia_Ensor

Dale...

I think that was a very interesting post.... I think you put a lot of thought into trying to convey the truth, from a professional potter's perspective, without coming off as completely lambasting the work. At least not to me, as someone who knows you well enough to know how to read your posts.

In the interest of helping you improve the reception of your critiques... which I have always found insightful, and sometimes colorful... I will comment that it is not so much the critique as the choice of words that can be lost on the receiver...

For example... rather than pointing out the differences between a "newbie" potter, and "potters in the know"... I would personally have chosen (were I a potter of any caliber) to put it in the perspective of "novice" potters, and "experianced", "professional" or even "master" potters.... because we can agree I think that Boon's only great lack is experiance... it is not any lack of initiative or commitment to the art.

And for those who can't resist the urge to take your comment in a negative light, choice of adjectives aside, I will highlight that you paid him a very good compliment... for you called him a fellow artist... and possibly future competition.

You were off in one area though.... there was no need to completely delete your first message my friend... because one part was still very true... it was exceedingly nice to see a completed pot. I have been privy to a few others before and I have always been delighted with the chance to see Boon's efforts. Mostly because I see the passion and fire which burns within him for the art.

Boon... I lack the eye Dale has, or his vast experiance... but as I see it, in any art, we hope to go from one level of accomplishment to another... Knowing how many pots you have destroyed because they did not satisfy your desire to do something credible, I have no doubt that this is just another step in the path. I know in another year or five years, you will have found your place, and your expression.

I personally look forward to watching your continuing journey as a bourgeoning artist in this field.

Warm regards to all,

Victrinia

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Joanie

Dale's post wasn't at all negative, it was extremely well worded and insightful. It was a good critique, and got its point across very well.

(LOL) I still really like the pot, though!! Wouldn't mind having it at all, would be glad to pick it up at a bonsai show and touch it, and consider which tree would go well in it.

Joanie

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"You can say any foolish thing to a dog, and the dog will give you a look that says,
'Wow, you're right! I never would've thought of that!'" ~ Dave Barry