Choosing A Pot

pdbbonsai

Hi y'all.

My biggest problem as a STUDENT of bonsai is matching my trees to pots.

I began my interest by buying pots over the net for a two reasons:

a. el cheapo
b. I like el cheapo

This is/was up until I met an artist named Sara Rayner. Then my trees had some class. At least on their feet.

I would like to present to the forum these questions.

1. What is the general or personal feeling of matching pots to:

a. the styles......literati, cascade, uprights...etc
b. the species.....coniferous, deciduous, fruiting, etc

2. Are pots with kanji, flowers, or even "Pauls Bonsai" on the side something to avoid with any of the styles or species.

3. What the heck is wrong with this Morris Midget being in this pot?? I got a set of them for 6 dollars!!!

I just want it answered this way for example.......(and this is where you hijack the thread)

pines go in unglazed brown pots that are rectangle or a drum

deciduous can be placed in a colored pot that balances the fall color or perhaps the fruit color, or flowers....can be in a lotus, oval.......etc etc

I ask only because I wear plaid and stripes together......know what I mean? I am terrible.

Paul

Attached Images

morris.jpg (20.6 KB, 493 views)

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Carl_Bergstrom

Interesting question, Paul. I also find pot selection to be among the hardest aspects of bonsai, especially when comes to having the foresight to buy a pot today for a tree that I'll repot next year. I often buy pots because I like them, and then get them home and discover that (1) they're just like all the other pots I have and (2) I don't have any trees that are appropriate. So I do find that it helps a great deal to take the tree along when buying a pot...but that wasn't really your question. Sorry. Just wanted to make sure that I made good on your offer to hijack the thread.

The aesthetic aspects of pot selection are complicated, I agree...and almost no bonsai book gives enough attention to this matter. The exception is Dave DeGroot's wonderful Basic Bonsai Design. He devotes ten pages to the pot selection issue. Terse, but worth the price of the book for this chapter alone.

I don't want to steal his effort so I won't relay the whole chapter here, but basically, Dave lays out a spectrum of masculine to feminine characters on trees . Features such as rough bark or massive nebari fall to the masculine side, whereas smooth bark and flowing movement fall to the feminine side. He lays out a similar spectrum for pots. Angular, unglazed pots may be masculine whereas rounded glazed pots may be more feminine. He is well aware that this is only one spectrum, and not even an absolute one - and so he then proceeds from this starting point to consider some of the more subtle details of pot choice.

So I realize I still haven't really answered your question, but it's because I don't really have anything to say in my own words. Take a look at Dave's book. It's cheap, and well worth your while. It's also one of the two English-language rivals to Naka's pair of books for basic styling principles. (Peter Adams' Successful Bonsai Shaping is the other.)

---

Oh...and I don't think that the pot selection for your tree is so terrible. (The wallpaper doesn't do it any favors, though ). My main comments would be

1) That it is on the deep side, though perhaps necessary horticulturally in this case and

2) The picture on the front is a mountainous scene which conflicts with the pastoral image conveyed by the tree itself.

Best regards,
Old Mister Crow

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Leesa

Thank you for starting a new thread - I am so ready for a new topic!

It sounds to me like you are way past Pots 101 - so if my answer is really back to the basics - forgive me!

OMC - I really like the DeGroot book too. He made another point in that chapter about "visual mass" that I have found helpful. The traditional proportional relationship of the visual mass of the container to the visual mass of the tree is about 30%. One additional point - not really about the pot - but the positioning of the tree that I found interesting. In some cases - the tree is potted higher than the top edge of the container so that "the eye includes the mass of soil with the mass of the pot - in effect enlarging the pot" - and giving the correct mass to a container that might otherwise be too shallow. He demonstrates this concept with a grid overlay. In the posted photo - I would guess that the pot might be 50% of the tree mass. (For those that count pixels - you can let me know if I am close.)

He also states some of the standard "rules of thumb" - I am sure most of us are familiar with them:
1. Length of the pot = 2/3 height or spread of tree - whichever is greater
2. Depth of the pot roughly equal to diameter of trunk above the base.

Based on these guidelines - it would be interesting to see the tree in the posted photo in a more shallow pot.

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Respectfully, Lee Sanner

Carl_Bergstrom

Very good points, Leesa.



Like this?

Here are a few pictures for comparison.

The original is in the upper-left-hand corner. The upper-right hand corner is the same width but shallower. The lower left is about the same volume, but longer and shallower. The lower right hand corner is just kind of silly.

Attached Images

paultree.jpg (61.7 KB, 455 views)

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Jay

Interesting topic!
First, I like the upper right pix of OMC's post. It gives, to my eyes, the best 'look' for the tree.
My pot selection process is as follows:
I too, have read the DeGroot book as well as other individual’s thoughts on tree and pot marriage.
I am trying to collect and stockpile an assortment of pots so when repotting time comes I have a choice. I am also trying to produce my own pots in a pottery class, and as I have said, hope to have my pot-making ability improve, as my trees improve.

As I think about repotting, I try and visualize the tree in each of my available pots. I select the two or three that I think will be the best choice.... size first, shape second, color third (all three are important, just my order). Then I place the tree behind the new pot and again try and visualize the marriage. I make the selection and pot it up! As a novice it works for me!

By the way Paul, I have seen Sara Raynor and her pots.... I would love to have one of my trees in a pot of hers.

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Ceberon

I think pots are often chosen for the same reason that accent plants are chosen, to give you a feeling of where this tree is in your "fantasy" nature scene. IE, a tree dangling off of a mountain will have a tall pot for it's cascade form, with maybe some scraggly grass (or a small rock) to show the hard nature of the mountain.

A tree growing in a flowery meadow may have a brighter pot to show the bright nature of the meadow.. some dark pine forests would have the brown pots to show the darkness of the forest... etc.

I personally think the bottom-left pot to be the best choice. I like shallow pots, and I think spreading the pot out to the right & left gives me an impression of a massive tree in a large field, the type you'd sit under to read a book on a hot day.

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Leesa

OMC - I like the one in the lower right corner. To me - the tree looks more powerful and the pot looks about right - I think it could even be a bit shallower. I was going to edit my comments to say - "or maybe an oval shape" - but I will just add it here. This tree is very round and yet the trunk has a feminine feel to it - at least to my eye. That would suggest an oval pot, don't you think?

I keep hearing about Sara Raynor pots - she must be an East Coast potter??

Paul - how are we doing on the hijacking?

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Respectfully, Lee Sanner

pdbbonsai

I typically buy pots with no idea about the tree that will inhabit it. I dont have a huge resource other than the web, or catalogues....and of course the once a year I get to see Sara.....which is tomorrow nite!!! I have only met her once before mind you....I dont want to come off like I am buds with her.

I think that I still would like to have more input on the original question....yes the book sounds like a great read, and I could order it I suppose. However, for the sake of discussion here. Is there a general guide......


Literati, for example. generally all the photos I have seen show them in a shallow round, either a drum, or saucer type container. Colors depending on the species. I got this down I suppose.

What about the others? Any other suggestions? Or if I may answer my question with another question......Does it simply matter on an individual tree by tree basis? Not all trees are created equal.??...(i am copyrighting that last statement) all use of it must be permitted by me.....


OMC....I am glad you like the background. I was actually photographing another hobby of mine with it.....it is a kids sheet that I hung on the wall. LOL

Here is Zazu.

Attached Images

zazu8.jpg (40.1 KB, 377 views)

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Carl_Bergstrom

Wow - I think I love Zazu. What a gorgeous bird. Yes, the background is much more becoming for her? him?

Ceberon, you're certainly on to something with your comment about that lower-right-hand pot. By dropping the pot height and particularly by spreading it wide, you get a sense of an expanse of land stretching beneath the tree. I just love that particular look myself, and I have a habit of overpotting my shohin trees with respect to width in just this manner.

That said I actually prefer the upper right corner as having better balance for this particular tree - but this is decidedly a personal thing.

Leesa, I agree that oval would be a good choice, perhaps a better choice, for this tree. At least the rounded corners of the present pot help a great deal to move it in this "feminine" direction. I personally don't like that lower left corner - the tree may look more powerful, but it's top-heavy. To my eye, the visual mass of the pot is insufficient to anchor or balance the visual mass of the tree.

Paul, I think it does matter on an individual tree-by-tree basis. This is one of DeGroot's points, that one has to look at a lot of aspects of the tree - bark, foliage, trunk shape, canopy form, nebari, flowers, etc - in order to pick a well-suited pot. Also the same tree could be well placed in two very different pots, each of which would complement and stress different features of the composition.

I hope that's not too much of a cop-out answer.

All the best,
OMC

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