Bonsai pot myth?

Joanie

Ron, let's see if Vance is talking about water migrating through a pot first. I don't think that he is. I think that he is talking about a cheaper clay that is unable to withstand the expansion of the soil and root mass.

I was thinking about your experiment last night, and it's very ingenious. However, I really truly don't think that water migration (and water conductivity) is what you were measuring. Sure wish someone else who has expertise in this area would chime in, one way or another.

Joanie

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Vance Wood

I agree, but it is doubtful that is going to happen. It would have to be a long expensive research.

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The only finished bonsai is a dead one; me 1992 MABA Des Moines Iowa

Boondock

This is an very interesting topic.

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Joanie

It's hard to go up against established beliefs, with something that's difficult to prove at home. (like whether water penetrates into the clay walls of a stoneware pot and can migrate all the way through) Especially when there are so many factors. So I was thinking of a way to simplify my argument, and then I'll let it go. (because I can't prove it, and we lack the scientific knowledge to show it)

1. If you have two pots, made from identical high-fire clay... and...
2. Both pots are fired to their maturation temperature... and...
3. One has glaze (also high fired, obviously, or the clay wouldn't have reached its maturation temperature)... then...

4. Neither pot will allow migration of water into more than just the unglazed surface of the clay walls... and...
5. Neither will crack through the walls if exposed to the same conditions, or both will. The glaze will be irrelevant to the cracking issue.

That's as succinct as I can put it. Now, we have to assume that the clay is fired to maturation. (Maybe the glazed import Chinese pots are not fired to their complete maturation temperature, because their glaze is not high fired) We have to assume that the clay body is the same. (Maybe the import Chinese clay feels the same, but you can't tell by feel and color whether they really are the same) You have to assume the same shape, because that is a factor in winter cracking. You have to assume the same soil content, because a dry rocky soil matrix may not expand as much as a higher organic soil matrix.

Interestingly enough, I did run across some vague references to pre-1800 AD Japanese pots being fired in noborigama (sp?) kilns, that are notorious for "cold spots" etc. If the pre-1800 pots had not fired to their proper temperature, they very well could have "breathed" and absorbed water, because they would not have vitrified. The clay, also, may not have been properly processed. The idea that the pots breathe may have come from this pre-1800 era, (and indeed been true) but using modern kilns and clay processing techinques would now assure that Japanese high fired pots are, indeed, vitrified.

Joanie

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Craig Cowing

That may be your experience but it certainly hasn't been mine. Just the opposite.

Craig Cowing

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I'm not finished yet, neither are my trees.

RonMartin(deceased)

Now here is a weird thought. Could that “myth” about bonsai pots breathing have some validity to it.

Is it possible that they are supposed to breathe.

Could the founding fathers (and all those others that have gone before us) have found that a high fired and supposedly non porous bonsai pots are not the best of bonsai pots. Maybe good tea pots but not good bonsai pots.

Could it be that the modern potter has gotten it all wrong. ;o)

The old guys seems to have no problem keeping a bonsai alive for hundreds of years. The modern world is lucky to keep one alive for 10 years.

Was bonsai better off before the myth busters came along. Maybe it is not what came first. “The tree or the pot” but “Which is more important” A broken pot can always be replaced. A dead tree is, well , just firewood.

Any way I did say it was a weird thought. Might be worth pondering though. Could all that breathing be necessary. Are us modern pups missing something.

morea

Dear RRRRRRONNNNNNNN !

Interesting Your last reply !

Yes , we puppy's do not know how our pots are
over .....about ....100.....years .

Breathing , magic ....
You made me thinking :
Why do almost all very old pots have crackels ( in the glaze )?
Crackels are openings , for water and air .
The glazes have it both at in and outside the pot .

Joanie ,
there is something else with the clay going on .
Tomorrow I make a picture and show and ask You , oke !
Great reply's you are writing , thank You !
Kind regards
Morea

Joanie

Yes, Ron, it's possible. But that would mean that every Japanese pot made since about 1870 would be bad for the trees. And remember, the Chinese porcelain pots would be even more vitrified than the Japanese stoneware!

It's the care of the trees that keep them alive in high fired pots. It's the deep knowledge of the tree's needs, of the climate and soil, of the rhythm of the seasons that make the Japanese successful. They could probably grow the same trees in fiberglass or concrete pots, because they know how to work with the trees. And us young, raw, presumptuous non-Japanese folks keep killing ours because we don't take the same care of them.

Morea, I look forward to your pictures tomorrow, and will be wondering all night what you have to show us!

Joanie

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RonMartin(deceased)

Joanie my comments were made in half jest but they does seem to have ruffled your feathers a bit.

But I do have one question. Are your comments about bonsai pots or just pottery in general.

Has Japanese bonsai potters changed the way that they have made bonsai pottery starting around 1870.

Are the best bonsai pots fired as high as you say they are. How does porcelain fit into the equation. Are bonsai pots made of porcelain.

Just what constitutes a bonsai pot . How is one made.

When that master Japanese bonsai potter sets down to make that Tokonome pot what qualities are he looking for.

It is different than when making a tea pot. (A bad example maybe but it is the only one that I can think of at the moment. )

It is easy to get off track here. All kinds of pottery can pop up in this discussion But remember we are discussing bonsai pottery. It has its own standards. Lets stay just with bonsai pots if possible.