Trident Maple need advice please

Attila

I am sure that the tree will do fine at this point. The best news is that the roots are healthy, that is the key to the tree's health.

Regarding defoliation and repotting in the same time, I have to admit that's new to me. Reducing foliage proportionately with root reduction is one thing, but complete defoliation is another.

The vast literature of bonsai says that defoliation should be done on strong and healthy trees only (occasionally this literature may be outdated, but for the most part it is still regarded as true). This makes sense, since defoliation causes stress to the tree, therefore the tree should be strong to cope with the stress.

If we defoliate while repotting, this will add to the stress of repotting. And if we assume that the tree was not in top health in the first place, now we have a weak tree with double stress. I just can't see the benefit in this.

All this of course may not be enough to kill a trident, which is one of the most resilient trees that ever lived on this planet. I have worked with hundreds of them, and I don't remember killing even one of them. It's impossible to kill them.
But the more stress we cause, the more we will slow down it's recovery to perfect health.

Just my opinion.
Attila

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John Dixon

Attila,

I agree that most literature instructs complete defoliation on healthy trees only, but that is prefaced for reasons of foliage size reduction and/or improved fall color. I can't ever recall seeing it for re-potting guidelines, but it may well be there.

In general terms ANY change causes stress to varying degrees. I don't view defoliation as one of the more stressful techniques. It is a STIMULANT, no doubt, but I don't feel it is especially stressful as long as dormant buds are present. I still feel the minimization of moisture loss through transpiration outweighs any stress it may have on tridents. Now when it comes to other species, I am not as cavalier in my opinion (Quercus robur for example).

Any doubt I had about defoliation at re-potting was removed when i saw Colin Lewis make a trident forest a few years ago. He was borderline "brutal" to the trees. He defoliated by basically ripping his hand through the leaves around the branches. Now granted, the trees were younger and healthy, but the emphasis was that the tridents could handle it easily (and they did). It made a believer out of me.

I can't recall the defoliation trick being well-written for repotting less-vigorous bonsai, but I have read about it before several times. Does anyone else have a reference for it?

Anyway, I accept your difference as an appropriate level of caution, and can understand the concern.

John

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John Dixon

Si vis pacem parabellum

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Will_Heath

I understand what you are saying here but the same situation works for leaving the foliage alone also. The roots will need to grow quickly in order to keep up with the transpiration of the leaves. In my experience the tree would rather throw growth into roots than drop foliage, I think this has to do with the programmed need to survive.



True again but defoliation doesn't really produce smaller leafs, just younger ones that have not yet reached full size. (I think)

While it is true that defoliation, bud production, severe cutback are all needed on a bonsai and all have their place, I personally do not believe preforming these techniques on a newly root pruned plant is the healthiest thing to do.

That being said, there is great success in both schools so the chances are that it really doesn't matter either way.

Thanks for the thoughts John,


Will

Will_Heath

Yes, the only known way to kill a trident is to give it to me. Michigan winters and tridents and me do not get along, lol.


Will

Attila

John,

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I know that there is always something new to learn, even after may years of practice.

It is good to keep in mind though, that some species take defoliation as a great insult. The Fagus family (oaks and beeches) is one of them, back in Vancouver I killed a few beeches myself that way. - but of course here we are talking about the trident, so the above is irrelevant.

Thanks again,
Attila

John Dixon

Will and Attila,

I guess I should have said that I've never been accused of being very conservative when it comes to bonsai techniques. Matter of fact, I think idiot, moron, etc., has been used with reckless abandon. Sort of how I do things.

All kidding aside, there are different schools of thought here. I can see the rationale of your viewpoints as well.

Best regards,

John

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John Dixon

Si vis pacem parabellum

Stay off the trails of others, that's where the booby-traps are.

Emperor Fish

This is an interesting situation, and I can see common logic on both sides.

A good method for dealing with overly drought-stressed trees that have very wilted leaves is to defoliate; as the roots have become as damaged as the foliage (possibly more so given the temperature extremes in bonsai pots). This defoliation reduces additional transpirational stresses that the tree cannot compensate for, due to the dessicated roots. I can see why this method could work in this situation.

Still, as others have commented - it's a trident, so can probably cope with being doused in petrol, left in the Gobi desert, defoliated, root-pruned and then attacked by Mr Lewis.

Fish.

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Aaron_K

Hi Degs,

On a completely different note, can I ask where you bought your pumice from and how much it was? I've been looking all over for that stuff and can't seem to find it anywhere!

Many thanks,

Aaron

Will_Heath

Hey, there's only room for one moron here, get your own nickname.




Will