Trident Maple need advice please

Degs

to all of you who took the time out to answer my questions today, I sincerely give you my thanks. I will start work on it and will update with progress....

again, my thanks

Degs

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Arnie

Degs,

John offers great detailed advice here.

Remeber, shade aids recovery. I would be a little nervous of completely defoliating at this stage, and keep say 20-30% of the small inner leaves, completely remove all the large ones.

Watch you soil suggestion of Grit and Akadama, it may be a little too fast drainning (particularly if we get the hot summer forcast) Pumice retains more moisture with perhaps a small amount of peat. Sphagnum Moss has an uncanny effect on maples, use some in the mix - I'm sure when the new roots get to it you'll be OK. I'd use 60% Akadama 20% Pumice and 15% chopped Sphagnum Moss and a little peat.

Tridents are extremely vigourous, I'm sure your tree will improve with a little care.

Degs

well 2 hours later and im done.

I had no larger tub so i repotted back into the same pot. i used a layer of course gravel, a mix of pumice and sphagnum moss, to top off pure akadama. I would say it was 60% akadama 20% gravel and 10% pumice and moss each.

I lifted the tree carefully and the soil at either of the far ends crumbled away. I started to carefully work at the soil and the soil came away very easily, there are alot of fine feeder roots and many plump white tips. After 15 mins id managed to take away 90% of the soil with literally no torn or lost roots. There was some very minor loss, but no where near as much as I thought there would be.

I could get through to the rootball way way easier than any other repot ive tackled. I did not prune any roots at all, I gently combed out and replaced, wired in and worked in the akadama.

John, I paid very close attention to the rootball. I inspected very carefully and had a good sniff around the earth and root mass, there was absolutely no dead, decayed roots, nor was there any smell other than the earth smell. All I could see was a very healthy, but limited root system, there was just not as many roots I was expecting to see for a tree I had assumed was left in the soil for a year or 2.

I am about to start defoliating as suggested. This is not something i've tried before, and always assumed to keep the leaves as they would nourish the tree while it is growing roots. However, i'm very new to this so will follow the respected advice given.

I have some superthrive but I understand it has mixed reviews. Should I use it? also, i've read conflicting opinions about waiting a month to 6 weeks to fertilize, against fertilizing a weak solution shortly after a repot.

I will follow the advice, I would like to see some of the opinions on here on the above questions.

I've got my fingers crossed at the moment, I hope it survives at least to apologise for giving me a back ache after bending over for 2 hours while working on it. (only had a low table to work on!!!)

Degs

Arnie

Sounds like things are pretty good with the root system, personally I wouldn't have removed so much of the old soil (unless it was clearly holding stagnant water and rotting the roots) and would have invested in a bigger pot until it recovers. But it sounds like you did a careful job of it.

Water quiet lightly for a few weeks and keep in the shade - no food.

This stimulates the tree into forcing out more root in search of water and nourishment.

Superthrive - you'll find very mixed opinions on this one, some think its crap, some swear by it. I use it and think theres something in there that helps and aids recovery....probably some vit B1. If you have it use it....but again keep it light, a drop per gallon.

Good luck, you,ll probably find that Trident sending out lots of new growth soon.

Degs

thanks Arnie,

I will try the superthrive, i used it on a kiyohimie, which i repotted a month or 2 ago, and i think it helped as its shot out loads of new leaves. heres hoping.

I too thought i moved to much soil, but the soil it was in was like a bog, it was not sifted, it was clumped and not draining at all. plus it came away very easy. If tridents are as vigerous as im being told then im hoping with the mix i used the roots will have good space to grow into along with air getting to the roots.

Il keep a close eye on the watering of this tree. I defoliated all the big lives, id say i have left around 30% on the tree, made up of small leaves and new shoots.

John Dixon

Degs,

I use Superthrive too. Although I can't say for certain it works, I'm sure it is NOT hurting anything. I have to think it is helpful and is similar to KLN (if you have that in the U.K.). I use it at every re-pot.

From your description, it sounds like the soil was the problem. If it can't get air, the roots won't grow in it, and that seems to be the case.

Truth be known, you may not have had to defoliate, but keep in mind that the tree has to sustain the leaves while the roots are recovering. With the leaves gone, the tree can concentrate its reserve energy to the roots. Once those establish, then it has ample ability to support a new flush of leaves. A partial defoliation can result in the tree NOT signaling the dormant buds to grow. Tridents probably are less-prone to that though. I always completely defoliate maples, but some species are different and, of course, some will not tolerate it at all (like pines). Like so many things in bonsai, defoliation can be a risk, but for situations like yours (and with a trident) I always lean towards defoliation being the right method.

I'm encouraged that you immediately took action. That is a positive mindset to resolve the problem as soon at it can be remedied. Well done. Just remember to give it good follow-up care. 4-6 weeks is about right for the waiting period on fertilizer. When the tree's flush of new growth has extended, you should be fine.

Please keep us updated with its progress.

Warmest regards,

John

__________________
John Dixon

Si vis pacem parabellum

Stay off the trails of others, that's where the booby-traps are.

Degs

Hi John,

Again I thank you for your help and time on this.

I dont know of a product called KLN over here, is KLN an abbreviation?

I was scared to completly defoliate. i've read much on the benefits of doing it to maples, but never thought id have a tree so soon which would require it. il take your advice and defoliate completly john, then il just have to wait and see if it will fine.

would there be a problem with using a weak solution of bone meal on the tree, i would have thought after a week or 2 it could be beneficial to use bone meal or the like, as it is very low in nitrogen.

thanks again.......

John Dixon

Degs,

KLN is the product name and I'm not sure if it is chemical symbology too. Just leave the tree as you now have it. Complete defoliation is the "recommended" way, but if you only left a few leaves and that gives you some comfort, leave 'em on.

Bone meal is fine once the tree has recovered . If you are implying to use it now, I don't recommend it. Some people actually mix cottonseed/bone meal/blood meal into their soil mix. I'm a little skeptical of that, since I view trimmed roots akin to an open cut on your skin. Only healing ointments should be used on broken skin and anything else will probably irritate it. Roots that have been trimmed are similar. They need to heal before they can be asked to work normally. Fertilize too soon, and you could burn the roots and make the situation worse, even fatal. In 4-6 weeks bone meal is fine, but a more balanced feed will be needed later. I can't remember the NPK of bone meal, but I know it is low in nitrogen and higher in the other two. It's a good compromise for the initial feeding. Fish emulsion would also be a good choice and a weak solution can be applied as a foliar feed too. Of course, in 4-6 weeks.

If you use the Superthrive, it is getting some nutritional value (in my opinion anyway). It and KLN are the only "feeds" I use at re-potting time.

Take care, and just be patient. You have taken the correct action, and as long as you continue to give proper follow-up care, I feel confident you will obtain a positive result. It's up to the tree now.

If there is one thing I've learned it's that bonsai (given some obvious guidelines) are a LOT tougher and resilient than most people think.

John

__________________
John Dixon

Si vis pacem parabellum

Stay off the trails of others, that's where the booby-traps are.

Will_Heath

John,

You brought up an interesting point about defoliation when re-potting.

A tree tends to always strive for balance, it tries to keep the foliage balanced with the root mass and visa versa. When I pot trees and reduce the root mass I do not cut back the foliage, the theory being that the tree will respond by increasing root growth to match the foliage. Of course the tree could also drop foliage in order to balance itself, but I have found that they only do this if for some reason they can not produce the root growth. (lack of air, water, or food)

We as bonsaist take full advantage of this balance of trees by potting in small shallow containers, restricting the root growth and there by also restricting (due to the trees need for balance) the foliage growth as well.

I am fully aware that this goes against some teachings but I also know that it appears to work quite well.


Will