Step by step shohin from nursery stock Part 1

PatArizona

G'day October...

Nice job with this little one.

But, let me comment on the "style"...I agree with John Von's first impression. Without seeing it up close and personal...in my OPINION...it looks more like an informal upright...to much foliage for a literati.

Like I have said before...OPINION...particularly with literati and bunjin, less is better.

Pat

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BONSAI isn't about surviving in a storm, rather, how to dance in the rain.
THE ONLY WAY: Always remember, and don't ever forget, that whatever you read here is not cast in concrete... the intent of any advice is to help. In no way should you feel that I’m saying that my way is the only way…heaven forbid! I've seen far too much of the "my way or the highway" attitude in bonsai as well as in other areas of life.

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Lilli

Hi October,

Your little lecturing on the first steps is fantastic!! I am a beginner and your help definitely works!
Since there are no bonsai clubs or even bonsai "doers" i know of, i cannot make an aprenticeship which i thought would be optimal for me. Therefore i really have to learn on the pictures and short movies on the 'Bonsai Focus' homepage.
You know in this phase of mine i'm looking at old and your trees in the forest (now i'm living among 3 oak and beech mixed forests) and try to imagine which one would be fine for a bonsai.. I love young trees! But till your pictures i didn't dare to wire them.
So, i have some questions on this:
1) Is it better for a beginner to collect a young tree about 20-25 cm tall, or is better to get a bigger tree and chop it back? I would prefer a small one than cutting -but is it correct?
2) When you have the tree do you immediately wire it or do you give a weeks/months for the tree to accomodate?
3) When having a non-conifer should i wait till fall to form the tree or is it OK also in the vegetation period?
and finally: 4) How do you define the vegetation period on an indoor subtropical tree -namely a ficus? (Because i have a ficus benjamina natasja, too.)

I am planning to make a birch bonsai, because that is not so expensive in my country and your can always find in a nursery (there are no bonsai nurseries in my region..), or under older trees as wild sprouts stemming from the roots.

thanks for your photos!
Lilli

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"If you are not a thinking man, to what purpose are you a man at all?" (S. T. Coleridge)

october

Hello Lilli, I was pleasantly surprised to see my thread resurrected. I will do my best to answer your questions.

First, as far as collecting and being a beginner, it isn't necessarilly a question of right or wrong. However, if you collect a tree from the wild etc... You would have to wait a year or 2 before you can begin working on it to let the tree acclimate.

However, if you get the entire root ball when you dig it up.. you could work on it the following year instead of the 2 year wait. Also, there is more than meets the eye when collecting. Its not just a dig it up then plant it somewhere situation. There are many steps that need to be taken. However, I will not get into them now because this would turn into a book instead of an email ha hah ha

In my opnion, I would try to look for some container grown trees. I am not sure what kind of nurseries, if any are in your area...If there are local Garden centers that sell trees in the basic black plastic pots, this would be a good thing to start with. You don't have to go to bonsai places, regular nurseries are good. The only draw back is, that out of about 500-100 trees you look at, only 1 may be suitable for bonsai.

Being new, I am sure you want to start practicing and fine tuning your skills. If you collect something from the wild, you will have to wait a year or 2 and this won't help you at this time. If you purchase a tree from a nursery, you can prune and wire immediately. Providing it is the correct season, Spring is a good time for repotting and pruning etc.....

Probably the best thing you can do right now, is the learn the 5 main styles of Bonsai, there are also many sub styles. The main styles are formal upright, informal upright, slant, semi cascade and cascade. After you get familiar with these styles, you can go pic out material that somewhat matches the shape and structure of one of these styles. This knowledge is a necessity in the beginning. It will be the founding structure of knowledge you will need and use for as long as you do bonsai.

To just randomly go and dig something up or pic a tree up at a nursery without knowing these styles, will and may lead to your disappointment. As you get more experienced,..you will have a firm knowledge of these styles and when you see a tree, you will automatically know what style the tree should become.

By "vegetation period" I believe you mean in leaf. Tropicals allow you a greater window to repot and do work on them, conifers are limited to almost exact points of a season. It is perfectly fine to work on a tree in leaf. Sometimes when a tree is out of leaf it is easier because you can see more parts of the tree because there are less leaves and sometimes no leaves. However, be aware that trees that are dormant, or resting can be brittle because the sap is not flowing heavily like in the growing season. So there is a greater potential for the branch to break or crack.

Lastly, whatever species you chose first. Make sure you know how to take care of it. What temperature should it be in during each season, what are its watering requiremnets, how much sun does it need, does it need a dormant period, if so...how long etc....... Knowing the horticultural need of each species will allow you more success in bonsai. One thing to keep in mind is each tree, although the same species, may require different care.. Some an individual tree will require more or less water. So just becasue you have 2 junipers of similar size and variety, it does not necessarilly mean they will require the same exact care. One might like and need more water, for example. It will be in time that you will know what a tree likes after you go through the seasons a couple of times. However, you still will need to research the basic care for each species you chose.

I hope this was helpful.

Rob

Lilli

Hi Rob,

thank your for your answer and helpful hints. The first steps are not easy to make.. Now I am learning the styles.
I will follow your advice and will get a nursery tree. The general nurseries are very good in Hungary, there are gardencentres and flower shops where you can choose from indoor and outdoor trees.
I still have a question on the nursery trees what may sound ridiculous, but still would like to put. So, which one in "better" or commoner or prefered:
a) to get a short and your tree about 20-30 cm tall and thin trunk -which you don't have to chop back, but have to wait a lot until it gets a thicker trunk?
b) to get a mature and bigger tree -which you have to chop back or air layer?
I would prefer "version a" for beginning, because if I do something wrong the tree has better chances to live. And I don't like those back-chopped thees that look like a broom to me, either..
Or is it only the question of temper and philosophy?

thanks for your answer
Li

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"If you are not a thinking man, to what purpose are you a man at all?" (S. T. Coleridge)

Joanie

Lilli, it is generally better to get a bigger trunk and chop back. The illusion of age is better given by a bigger, older trunk. Growing a small tree, in a small pot, takes a very long time. But how about this idea... do both!

Most of us have big trees that we are cutting back, and also small trees that we are growing out. We have cuttings that are growing, that we made when pruning our favorite trees. We have seedlings too. It is better to have more trees to work on so that you don't get bored waiting for your tree to grow.

Cuttings and seedlings give you the opportunity to shape the trunk when it is young, and they are cheap or free. Nursery stock will allow you to choose larger trunks, and you can work on them more quickly. Also, keep an eye out for people digging up trees and bushes in their gardens. Some of the best bonsai came out of the ground.

Interestingly enough, it is harder to learn how to keep the trees alive in a bonsai pot than most people think it is. A bonsai pot limits the growth and health of the tree, so it is harder to keep it healthy. You need to have a variety of trees, and learn to grow them by practicing with them. Even if they aren't good for bonsai themselves, they will give you cuttings for the future.

Good luck!
Joanie

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october

Hello Lilli.. Joanie has given some good advice here...

Since you are a beginner, You may want to stick with trees where a visible future bonsai can already be seen...Normally, the height to width ration for bonsai is 6:1. Meaning for every 6 inches of height, the tree should be 1 inch thick. So, if a tree was 12 inches tall, you would want a trunk base that is 2 inches thick. However, this is a guidline. There are incredible trees that do not follow this rule. Through time and experience, you will recongnize what looks good, what has balance and good movement....whether the tree follows the rules or not... There are bonsai masterpieces that break rules.

For the purposes of keeping it simple to learn...try to find a tree that doesn't need an incredible amount of work...like one where you would have to chop the whole thing down and start again. However, a small chop would be a good experience for you. For example, if a tree is 12 inches tall, but it would better shorter, you can practice your cutting by chopping it right above another branch that will become the new apex.. In other words, you would make a diagonal cut on the trunk above the branch, then wire that branch up into position to create the new apex. I have included a virtual in this reply.

Also, I would like to add that wiring is a very formatted and structured skill. There are certain directions and principles you need to learn before you begin.. For example, If you want to wire a branch downward, you make the first coil over the top of the branch close to the trunk, if you want to wire a branch up, you make the first colie starting underneath the branch. Also, always wire in the direction the branch is going to be bent in. For example, if you are wiring a branch towards you, you have to coil the wire towards you. If you are wiring a branch away from you, that is the direction you follow.

Also, you will always want to wire a branch to another branch. In other words start the wire on the trunk in the middle of 2 branches, then make a coil a couple of times on one branch, then with the other end of the wire, you can start coiling on that branch.

It sometimes helps to face the branch that you are wiring directly towards you. In other words if you are about to begin wiring a branch on the right side of the tree. You would turn the tree so the branch is poking at you, then if the branch needed to be wired down and towards you, you would start the first coil over the top and wire counter clock wise ( to the left). Then when you turn the tree back to the original position, the branch is now bent down and bent slightly towards the viewer.

This may seem confusing and in a way it is. Wiring is one of the toughest things to learn from printed words, it is best showed to you in person by a good teacher.

I hope this was helpful.

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HotAction

This whole thread was great. I'm glad it got jazzed up again at the end. I'm very new to this whole thing. I also thought you did a fine job explaining the wire techniques. Makes pretty good sense. Thanks for everything.

Lilli

Hello Joanie,
I like your idea on having seedlings, cuttings and mature trees, too. You know, when one begins then may be sticked to very ideas and doesn't see the others. Yes, why not to try both! thanks!

Hi Rob,
you will laught at me, but I make notices on what I learn here.. So I read your advice on wiring and looked at the previous pictures, then read and read more. I will try out all this next week.
As I might have said, I have a "bunch" -a potful- of ficus benjamina natasja, which are still in their original plastic pot, because I wanted them to accomodate. I also had to find out where do they like in the house and how to water them. Tomorrow I plan to repot the healthier and vivid ones, and when everything goes fine, next week I will do some pruning and wiring. Then I will try to post some pictures on them..
And I still have a reather stupid question on chopping.. I couldn't find any hint or answer for it in the literature, perhaps, because it clear to everyone. But I said to Joanie, a beginner might stick to some question and possibilities..
So, if the apex is defined and wired, the tree will still grow higher..
Shall I always cut the apex back if I don't want it to get higher?
When the apex is cut every time and the trunk get thicker, will the tree have another apex or the "first" apex stays?
I hope you can understand my question, it's a lot hazy.. I have a lots of pictures before me, but I can't picture this simple practical movement.

thanks for your patience and help!
Lilli

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"If you are not a thinking man, to what purpose are you a man at all?" (S. T. Coleridge)

october

Hello Lilli........It is difficult to understand many bonsai concepts as far as reading them. You are not alone with being confused. Trust me, everyone has been very confused at many points when they begin bonsai and even years down the road.

There are no stupid questions,,the only stupid question could be a question that was not asked.....In bonsai you will need to ask as many questions as possible...If you don't understand it, you need to ask it again.


To answer this question...Yes, trees will keep growing for as long as they are alive during the growing season. If left unpruned..your tree will keep getting taller. When you have bonsai, you will need to maintanence pruning throughout the growing season. Some species, you can get away with letting them grow out and you can still prune back to their bonsai shape. Other species if you let them grow for a season or 2, you may lose the design and have to do some major pruning and start over again. This could set back the progress of the tree 1-3 years.

As far as apex's go... You would find the place where you want to shorten a tree. Then you would make the cut right above a side or back or front branch. After you cut the trunk off at that point, you would then wire that side/back etc..branch upwards to create a new apex. Here are 2 virts. When you wire up the new apex, you can start from a lower branch to anchor the wire or you can start from the base of the trunk, if the tree is short and will not need a lot of wire.

This is pretty much the apex that the tree will have through out its life. You will now have to develop branches within the apex..It will need to ramify..In other words, there should be several small branches coming off that new apex to form a nice well ramified apex. This can sometimes take many years.

I look forward to seeing some of your tree work

Rob

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