Sneak Preview Next Years Olive

TreeBay

Before talking about this tree in specific, I would like to mention some general characteristics I would expect in good field grown material.

First, the purpose in selecting a field grown piece over growing myself would be mainly the interest of time. I'm paying the grower for his time and expertise in planting, maintaining and developing the initial stock in such a way that I can produce a quality tree before my hair falls out. Other people have different criteria. I can imagine a teacher shopping for 12 similar trees for a workshop or class, but here is a general shopping list I use.

Matt's Rules for Stock:

1. HEALTH: The material should be healthy, vigorous and free of pests and disease.
2. SPECIES: Is the species or variety good for bonsai, or will it be a lot of work to get ramification developed, and leaf size into an acceptable range? Maybe it's a variety I have been looking for or an unusual one.
3. ROOTS: I need an acceptable roots arrangement on a side that could be used as a front. I don't demand a perfect radial root system, but I don't want a one-sided, crossing roots or roots with knees that come up out of the soil. Bonus points for roots arranged well.
4. LOWER TRUNK: The lower trunk should be good, without huge distracting scars, or reverse taper.
5. MOVEMENT: If it is informal upright material, I want to see movement in the lower trunk. The trunk should emerge from the soil at an angle and there should be a minimum of two good bends or a very interesting curve.
6: TAPER: If the trunk is not informal upright material, I would need to have good formal upright characteristics - a more perfect rootbase, and nice taper along the trunk.
7. BRANCHING: Branching isn't extremely important to me with most species, beyond having a leader in a good place to cut back to form the new apex. But, if the tree grows up like a telephone pole without clear cutback opportunities, it had better have some other redeeming values. In certain species, particularly pine and the like, branches are not inclined to regrow, so having lots of branch possibilities can be important.
8. BARK: Characteristics that suggest age, like knobby or rough bark are appreciated on species where it's appropriate
9. SIZE: Most people have a size preference in their bonsai. It could be large, medium or small.
10. PRICE:The price should be in-line with the quality of the stock.

I've attached below an Olive that I think satisfies the basic requirements. In particular, what I perceived to be the three main flaws in the original material: The trunk angle; taper into the first branch; lack of movement in the trunk.

Whatever the price, I would pay 10x as much for this tree as the original plant, because I think it is ready to design for bonsai. The original tree, I wouldn't know quite what to do with other than cut it back to a low branch and stick it in the ground so I can get some proper movement in the trunk

That's my take on nursery material as stock for bonsai

Attached Images

twobends.jpg (19.3 KB, 126 views)

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bonsaial1

Holy mackeral! Matt has hit it dead on the head. Whoopie, a hole in one. I have been trying to tell Rip, unsuccesfully I might add, that his trees don't have enough taper, movement or branch placement. Rip contends that this is for the "artist to build". Out of what? A large cutting? Making a huge piece of wood with no movement or taper and a whole bunch of little branches growing up and down the trunk does not invite me to part with my hard earned cash. With all the truly hard hitting commentary about bonsai design, and the bantoring about of purchasing quality stock, I would think that by now you would post an "offering" like that with a little disclaimer. How about posting a preview like this.

This is some olive stock we are producing. I feel that the stock is growing quite well at the present but I would like to improve the lack of movement and taper in the trunk. We have worked on the foundation and feel that some improvements on our final product will make the stock that much more inviting. I would appreciate any advice any of you could give me for improvement. Should I pick some branches and try to style for the future or would that limit the stock. How would you guys chop the trunks at an early age to induce movement. Thanks, I'm looking forward to any improvement that we can work on together.

Or... do you just not see it?....

I'll bet you get many ideas for improving your stock. People get the idea that you are humble and receptive to criticism. You have said out of frustration, "you try growing it". I am not, but you are, there fore you have reached a crossroads with your endeavor. Continue on with what you have , or take a hard look and start asking for help and put on the "humble" hat. I would bet you would put the last 3000 cuttings you put in the ground on hold and start concentrating on improving what allready has grown too big and has become in a lot of ways worthless. Allthough I'll also bet I'm wrong.

The verbage in your post sounds like you are offering the world the best olives money can buy. It comes off braggadocoius. Yet they lack all the qualitys that I seek out in buying stock. We have argued long and occasionally hard on the subject of roots. I think they are important. Not very important, just important. To me anyway. Others may differ. I think the other qualitys, and due to the responses you get on tree after tree dictates to me that most people have the same opinion. I have not heard one remark that said," yea I know the top is not that good but look at the root base its marvelous. Why? Cause thats not the first thing you look at when looking for stock. Your eye immediately goes up and down the trunk. From base to apex and down again. It may pause at the root base on the second glance, along with some glances at the first, second and third branch. If the trunk is not right your eye will reject it and start looking for another. The root base for the most part is just a piece of the complete harmonious package of bonsai. One is not more important than the others. They are all important. They should be equally addressed.

I feel that for a person preparing field grown stock, that the trunk and branches would be the most imporatnt part of the package. You somehow feel that the best roots possible on anything, no matter how unattractive the top looks, makes it the best. That is just not true. This is what invites people to the table and what they see from across the room. The first thing I do when I get to the vendor part of the show is take a hard look across the room. There is always something that pops out at me. This is the thing that brings people to your table. People may take a harder look when they get to your table, but at least you have captured them and the are there ready to buy.

If I went to a show and saw a table full of these olives like that , I wouldn't give 10.00 bucks for one. I just don't buy that kind of stock anymore. Theres just more work there than I want to do. maybe others would enjoy it, but I want a tree in 5 years max. I'll invest that much time, and refine over the next 10 or more. If I can't bring it to reasonable bonsai in 5 years, then the stock was not worth my time. I have said many times on this forum and to you in person. IT"S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY. My perceived value is what motivates me to buy a tree. I went to the REBs show cocked and ready shoot. I saw one plant in all that that blew my skirt up. If I saw a plant like the one Matt did in his virtual I would easily pay upwards of a 100.00 for it. I have paid more for trees.

Rip don't take the hardheaded path, its just not worth the journey.

Respectfully, Bonsaial

juliet-of-oz

I think its great that you are growing olive for bonsai, its a great tree for anyone to learn on as it is so very forgiving and has tiny leaves.

I am very spoilt for choice of olives where i am so i just dont have to buy them, but if i was to buy the olive you have posted i would cut it in the following way (see pic) and drop it into a training pot, you dont need any roots at all, you just cant kill olive (except maybe frost? - this i dont know? anyone?)

olives grow suckers rapidy and so you have to rub them off, if you do have 3000 and you want quality trees not walking canes, you will have to rub them off (busy person) also sacrifice branches for thickenng are important. i will post a pic of what i mean tomorrow as it is night here and im not going out there to find a tree right now!!

good luck with it

juliet

Attached Images

olive first side virt chop.jpg (33.2 KB, 109 views)

ripsgreentree

Matt: As I have stated befor I have too many olive trees, I am also glad to here your openions. I have shown you one tree. With the number of trees that we are growing and starting I will just bet that there will be something for anyones tast in material. I expect that other people will have diffrent tasts and I hope to have something for them also. The one thing that we have tried to avoid is the cookie cutter aspect of the major imports. The "S" curve that is prevelent in that market can become boring.
Jules I understand your good luck from past threads. Field olive is very common here in California, but when it is finished it does not look like this olive. You bet I am busy cutting suckers and I think that these trees are worth the effort.
Al, it is very hard to go against your nature. One of the reasons that I am such a jolly person is because I decided as a youth not to let the openions of others spoil my dreams. This dosen't mean that I will not take good advice, I realy do sift and think about every thing that is said to me. So fear not I am listening even if it dosen't look like it.
OMC, I could not agree with you more, foundation requires trunk line and limb choices.

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ripsgreentree

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TreeBay

I think a big problem with many of these trees is the angle of the lower trunk. The roots aren't formal upright roots, so please tell me why you grow the trunks up straight?

The primary definition of the informal upright style is that the trunk rises out of the soil at an angle. It doesn't come up straight and then hook around like a question mark:

?

So why grow it that way? The S curve prevalent in the market is there for a reason. It comes out of the ground at an angle and it moves. It doesn't need to be a soft curved S, it can have angles and all manner of switchbacks, but it does move. Plant it at an angle, grow it awhile, cut it back at another angle
//
\\
//

and you're on your way to something interesting.

Plant vertically and cut it back, and unless you have done it perfectly and frequently and can call it a formal upright , you have a big chunk-o'wood. I know. I have some 6-year-old, field grown chunk-o'woods myself.

Regards,

Matt

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Carl_Bergstrom

Damn! That is one sweet ASCII virtual!

Matt, your web design skills always impress me, but you've outdone yourself here. I'm serious.

-OMC

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TreeBay

I put your pruning next to my vert. Something is looking a little familiar! If this were mine, I would cut as you've indicated and put the sucker back in the ground.

Regards,

Matt.

Attached Images

julesolive.jpg (33.6 KB, 68 views)

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juliet-of-oz

Matt you have more foliage on yours than i do and i hadnt noticed - lol. ok, this is why I think olives shouldnt have straight trunks. i have been brave and shown you all my stuff ups in the past, so i just went outside and took this picture.

I have whited out the background trees to make this olive clearer in the pic, it still has some short sacrifice branches on. this i have found is the best way to thicken up the branches while keeping the foliage pads short and compact.

My camera died b4 i could get a good picture, sorry.

Attached Images

olive straight trunk.jpg (27.6 KB, 63 views)

juliet-of-oz

see how ugly a tree looks with a bulb at the bottom and a straight uninteresting trunk!! Dont grow trees that look like this.

I have no ides why i dug this one up..but i no longer see in it what i must have. i will keep it until its branches grow out and thicken up, foliage pads develop better and then i will either give it away or sell it as its really never going to get any better and somone else can have it wasting space on their benches.

So there, another mistake, dont do this!

Juliet
Queen of the anti-bonsai