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Panel tree #1 Prostrata Juniper

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Old 23-Jan-2007   #21
Vance Wood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay
Vance..that is what I read into it as well.....But If for some reason you or Al are looking to relocate. I would love to have you as a neighbor. I doubt that is very likely!

Jay..who lives in a state too small to insult


I appreciate that Jay, but I, like you, see a stab in there that is neither meant as complimentary or friendly to either Al or Michigan in general and Michigan bonsai in particular.
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Old 23-Jan-2007   #22
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Don't worry Vance I unlike others just ignore this kind of stuff. My back is just like a duck, it just flows right off.

I am very grateful that my rampage has seemed to make a few sit back and revaluate what is going on here. I think some here have mis read my musings that somehow we should not do things like post trees or do critiques. Personally I think they are cool, I have no problem with them in the least. What I do turn my nose up to is opening a new place on this forum to do it. We already have Show and Tell, TOD and Students of Bonsai. Why couldn't this be done there and a lot less informaly. Personally I think the formal things are the first to go under as far as patronage. Show and Tell has been here forever and it never lacks for at least some threads per week.

Why not just agree upon a title for the threads and everyone agree to title their post in such a way that it distinguishes the thread from all others. I kind of just came up with "Panel Tree" such and such, but something like that could be used just to see how long something like that may work. If there was overwhelming response and it was still going strong after 6 months, then it might be something to look at on a more permanent basis. Then and only then could someone seek out someone more professional. I think these things here need to prove themselves and not "shoot from the hip" so much.

Cheers, Al
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Old 23-Jan-2007   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tachigi
So what a great way to share and express ideas......It's all good
I believe that is probably what Al intended from the beginning. I also think it worked. Thanks for another great thread AL! Right on Vance! It was a stab and I believe an apology is in order. Al has done more for this site than any other member here and he should be respected for that. One of the main things, (along with his great tutorials) that Al brings to the table is provocative thought and he has done that with this thread IMO!
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Old 23-Jan-2007   #24
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For more on camera's, notice the difference in the picture below compared to the picture above. The above picture while standing directly in front of the composition, has angled the two trees back away from the viewer. Notice the front edge of the felt and notice that it is bowed. Now the bottom shot taken with a digital SLR camera seems to actually process the image exactly the way the eye views it. No distortion of stands, no bowing of horizontals and overall a pleasing view.

This from the recent Bay Island Bonsai Exhibit
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File Type: jpg DSC_000711.JPG (56.5 KB, 15 views)
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Old 23-Jan-2007   #25
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Huh?

Quote:
I think some here have mis read my musings that somehow we should not do things like post trees or do critiques. Personally I think they are cool, I have no problem with them in the least.


Quote:
I am an:
Opponent of doing a critique by internet or pictures. A good critique must take place in front of the tree to see depth and perspective.


Help me out here AL, I feel like I'm talking to Cybil. What am I missing?


Quote:
Al has done more for this site than any other member here and he should be respected for that. One of the main things, (along with his great tutorials) that Al brings to the table is provocative thought and he has done that with this thread IMO!


Sauce, I don't believe anyone here is disrespecting AL. We all recognize his contribution and talent and his long time involvement with this site. That still doesn't mean that this thread (if it was a lesson) couldn't have been thought through a little better. I recall starting this thread with "The tree was recently restyled by Marco Invernizzi. Where should it go?" I certainly didn't ask for a lesson, not that I would of been opposed to it. I just like to know where I stand and not get sucker punched.
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Old 23-Jan-2007   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonsaial1
Why not just agree upon a title for the threads and everyone agree to title their post in such a way that it distinguishes the thread from all others. I kind of just came up with "Panel Tree" such and such, but something like that could be used just to see how long something like that may work.
Cheers, Al


I agree. "Panel Tree" is a good title. Would it be fair to ask that the poster lists pertinent info (as you so gleefully pointed with our overlooking of needed information) so we don't have to do that dance every time someone posts a new tree?

Thanks Al - as usual there was a method to your... musings.
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Old 23-Jan-2007   #27
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Thanks, graydon, that was one of the things I disliked about the TOD. One of the things that it did do and was a success was the fact that trees were posted anonymously and rageing arguments were for the most part kept to a minimum. The one thing that was lacking was that in the beginning Matt had a good supply of trees that were for the most part non member trees. So information was lacking and we just commented on what could be decerned from the photo.

In the end the photo's became much more member oriented since Matt had no trees to post. Read back on some of those TOD threads and you will notice the change when the owner slipped in and started to defend his/her tree. Of course I have to say, some of those interactions became pretty superheated, but we did accomplish alot. I happen to think John Dixon's Rock bowl planting was one of the best that had ever been introduced and subsequently redone on bonsaiTALK.

Cheers, Al
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Last edited by bonsaial1 : 23-Jan-2007 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 23-Jan-2007   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tachigi
Sauce, I don't believe anyone here is disrespecting AL.
Tom, I didn't mean to insuate that. I agree with you, Andy and Graydon. But I also agree with Al. That is what has made the thread thought provoking, at least to me. I'm an old fart and I like threads, (like this one, for the most part) where folks disagree without lowering theirselves to name calling etc. Although I'm not creative or artistic enough to critique the tree I think I may learn a bit from the conversation.
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Old 23-Jan-2007   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonsaial1
Read back on some of those TOD threads and you will notice the change when the owner slipped in and started to defend his/her tree. Of course I have to say, some of those interactions became pretty superheated, but we did accomplish alot.


I'm not sure if you intended to bring this up or if it just popped in to my head all on it's own (that is doubtful...) but what is the protocol on the tree owner stepping in to "defend the tree" or reply to the comments? That type of action can certainly make a mess of a thread in a hurry.

Do they post the tree with all required info and step away for a day or until things slow down or do they get right in and go at it? I understand there is no way to bar them from posting whenever but in your opinion what works best? I suppose everyone would have their own way to do this. I would post the tree and info and go away for a while. I feel that it may be good for others to build off each other in the discussion. I mean - I have already said everything I wanted to when I start the thread, right?
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Old 23-Jan-2007   #30
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There was no more information attached to that tree than there was to any TOD tree posted. In fact I think there was more. It really didn't need anymore. This tree was placed there in the attempt to know if the shape was pleasing and the tree overall had a direction that should be kept. I know that the branches are lacking and refinement is not there. I think you guys try to finish a tree with a critique. I can tell you with experience that a tree is finished with years of methodical patience and not done in a few critiques on the internet.

I think some of you may be confusing critique with ameture workshop guru. The goal in a critique as I understand it is to look at the path the tree is on. For the most part most trees offered for critique are under construction by someone. The point is not to tear down everything the person has done thus far. It is not your tree! It is not your responsibility to restyle someone elses tree. I find the canopy that Ash put on that juniper a travesty to the image that Marco had tried so hard to achieve. It is the collections ambition to preserve in a collection or an endowment the flavor of the previous owner. This is something that I have very hard to do while working on trees in a collection. I seem to want to put my ideas and touches on a tree that I have no business changing. I need to keep the reflection of Marco in that tree and keep the flavor alive. I have found that to be my biggest challenge so far. Something that has not been easy for me to adjust to.

I remember the curator, Bob Hilvers telling me after I had just finished detail wireing a tree that had been recieved by the collection and was in drastic need of polishing. I had done the most marvelous job of placing the wire. I wanted the tree to be something that could be offered at a show but still retain wire and look good. I did a good job. I pinched out the tree and pruned some branches. I was so proud. Bob came over and said, Well now we have a new Keppler original. I had introduced so much of myself to the tree that I had made it my own.

Most people don't want too much in the way of opinion. Most people just want a litttle nudge in the right direction. "Yes your canopy looks great, and with detail wireing it will sparkle." "I like the line of the trunk, but something in the hanging branch is out of balance". Most people don't care about shari's and jins. They are there and for the most part there is nothing that can be done to change them, except shorten them or remove jins. Why make a big deal about them. If you don't like them or find them obtrusive just make sure they never find their way to your tree.

There may be an occasion or two, but for the most part I have never been to keen on talking about other peoples trees. I don't do critiques unless asked and do opine if that is what the threads about. I have been known on the forum as some kind of basher, but I think those that know me will tell that this is not the case. I have no need to bash someones tree or work. You can bet that if they ask for my opinion I will give it to them straight. Ask Redpine or Ron Martin. I'm more inclined to bash someone personally because they act childish, but not the work. I have too much respect for the work, its people that ruin the talk. The plants are just there minding their own business

Cheers, Al
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