Critic Author And Doer

David Yedwab

I'm really getting torqued about the attitudes beginning to prevail here and at some of the other sites those of us who supposedly have a positive interest in bonsai populate.

John Lahr, the son of cowardly lion (Burt Lahr), has become well know as an author about and critic of the arts (New York Magazine). Perhaps he decided his true talents, knowing the rules, were best as a critic than to follow in his father's footsteps as an actor.

That doesn't make his criticism any less relevant, it is the veracity of that which he says that makes him so well read.

So, perhaps some of us do bonsaid dwesign better than others, some do virtuals better than others and some critique and have opinions bettwero (or even worse) than others. Tha's no reason to challenge one to change from one discipline to another.

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David Yedwab

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BrianBay9

Maybe I haven't been paying sufficient attention lately - but, what the heck are you trying to say?

Brian

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There's a difference between taking your art seriously, and taking yourself too seriously.

David Yedwab

I'm just getting concerned that we have stopped helping eachother about bonsai and diverted our time and attention to attacks on people who are trying to improve our knowledge, skills and artistry. Just because that person may not be an accredited master artist (and may never be). That doesn't mean that they can't see or appreciate good art and design.

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David Yedwab

BrianBay9

Fair enough.

Brian

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There's a difference between taking your art seriously, and taking yourself too seriously.

mkonig

I think we just need to be aware that in a forum such as this, it is hard to appreciate that not everyone is at the same level. There is an extreme mix of knowledge from absolute beginner to world renowned bonsai artist posting to this forum and it is easy to misinterpret the meaning of some of the advanced postings and discussion threads.
I tend to put in my two pennys worth and sit back to watch the reactions. If i think that some of whats said applies to me, i think about it and make up my own mind if I:
a: ignore it because i have not got a clue what its all about
b: respond to it in the best way I can
or c: ignore it because i know its utter tripe.

It workd for me and i have to say that everyone in this should be able to express their opinion so long as it does not damn or defemate anybody else. The last thing I want is censorship, as you never know who censors.

Thats my two pennys worth

Mike

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I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person

bonsaial1

It's much easier for the persons involved in the rhetoric to respond to posts such as this if you would just have the guts to come out and name names. The flavor of this post I feel may aim towards my latest posts directed at Andy.

These posts, when and if they get responded to, will surely enlighten and delight the crown.

How say my dear Al, well it will be a real eye opener when the actual critique is revealed in my latest contest. Shinji Suzuki, known the world over as the future of bonsai in Japan, will leave you speechless in the way he found those trees posted. I have looked at the comments as posted so far. I found them to be most entertaining. This will be a delight.

I feel that the things that Andy has said about art in bonsai are true. I agree with virtually everything he says. The problem with Andy is the tone. I don't know how this drastic art thing has come about in his reasoning but I think it is skewed. I do not know what credentials Andy has to offer that makes the loud and arrogant rhetoric something that we should follow.

To enter post after post about the same thing, which he feels bears repeating at every opportunity does nothing to advance the art locally here on the forum. If you want to advance the ideals that we all come here to seek, then teach us by example, show us where the trees here fail and show the correct way they should be done. I would commend that at every opportunity. But to be constantly talked down to like I am a child acting out of place does nothing to build my confidence.

As humans we make mistakes. I do not wish to continue to make mistakes. If I do, and someone feels that what I do could be improved, don't just tell me it's craft or that it's not artistic, show me how to make it more artistic. Don't tell me that the whole Western culture will never get it right, or that the Japanese do it right because we never see the crappy trees. What is the answer to getting it right.

If the person does not have the answer, then humble himself by stating that the correct answer is not known. I don't know the answer either, but then I am not running down a whole entire culture without a plan to fix it.

I have supplied the tools for a artistic demonstration by Andy. Andy has given us artistic composition critiques in the past such as the Pacific Rim bonsai show last year. I chose this tree and the componets because they were difficult for one of the worlds leading authorities on Tokonoma design in the world. For me at least, there is no Hideko way or Andy way. There is no right way or wrong way. This is not to try to expose Andy as a fraud or in any way to belittle him. I would just be curious as to the way he would design it, and why.

Art is very subjective. You like somethings and you don't like some things. I don't think art can be taught. I'm sure that there are those that will disagree. Come on Al they have art schools right? Well sure they do. They have them to understand the basics and to learn how to mix colors and to learn the mechanics of art. But... some can take art school for 100 years and will never be able to paint like Remington or Kincaid. I chose these artists because I think they paint realisticly and leave nothing to the imagination. I'm not talking abstract here. Just great craft. What in the heck is wrong with great craft. Some think it is artistic.

Just who decides these things anyway. Just who is the person that decides what is art in bonsai and what is not. After spending some great quality time with Walter Pall and Shinji Suzuki, two absolut greats in the field of bonsai, and whose taste in bonsai could not be further apart. Yet.. the tastes in bonsai and what they feel for the feeling of the trees in front of them is universal. I truly felt that deep inside they both searched for what was good in the tree before them and not what was wrong. They were taking the trees in according to what the trees said.

Walter said: " When you look at a bonsai in the pot, it may good or bad. You have to stand back and let the tree speak to you. The tree will speak, but sometimes you don't understand the message. You don't speak the same language."

For me this is where the art part comes in. I don't feel that it is absolutely necessary to have full understanding of the arts to do great bonsai. I would like to know the number of world reknown artists today that have art degrees or an art background doing bonsai today. I'll bet that number would be pretty low. Maybe even non exhistant.

To appreciate bonsai, well thats another matter. Maybe some art background would be a better place to put that to good use. I can tell you I don't need a degree to appreciate bonsai. I find plenty of trees that speak my language everyday.

Yea.. I would rather talk about pruning trees here on a daily basis, but it's a free country, for now, and The Andy's of the world will always have something to say about something. There will always be controversy and those that feel a need to keep those that would like to force their views on the world at bay.

Just call me Rush Limbaugh of Bonsai, I can live with that...

Bonsai-al

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A tree a day...thats all we ask.

pdbbonsai

Amen. There are some things I would like to say, and just cant find the tone, or the words to convey what I want to say. Al, you have spoken up for me and perhaps a few others out there. Truely, I agree with alot of what Andy, and others say. I just cant swallow the jagged little pill they package it in.

Again, I do not wish to point fingers at just Andy. There are many different personalities here. With many different insights and opinions. It just seems Andy has been letting it rip here and other places lately. He turned that particular spotlight on himself. That is perhaps why he is focused upon as well. As well, he does have the right to.



Paul

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It is essential to experience all the times and moods of one good place. (Thomas Merton)

BonsaiTalk is one good place. (me)

David Yedwab

guys, all I was saying, really, is you don't have to be capable of creating great art to critique great art -- I do agree that we all have a little bit of dictatir in us -- remember Clint Eastwood's "my way or the highway"? -- I am hoping that we can all raise the level of our criticism away from people and their ability and back to helping us all learn more about better bonsai. Al, I ceretainly appreciate all you have done for us here, especially the GSBF stuff. I, too, have spent time with Walter and worked through my hole collection with him and had my eyes opened -- that's the p[ositive I'm hoping we can get back to. Peace, love and better bonsai.

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David Yedwab

Bart Thomas(deceased)

Having discussed this a little in person with Dyedwab, who joined me for Egg McMuffins on the way to a Bunjin ji class with Chase Rosade, I can attest to his desire for a more positive tone to the discussion.

That's it. Period.

I may not care for someone's trees, but that doesn't mean I can't question them about his/her thinking as to the development of that tree in such a way that we can remain friends.

One doesn't have to dislike Suzuki's work to admire Walter Pall's or vice versa. I'm sure that they respect each other's.

I would compare neither of them with Thomas Kincaid, whom I respect only as a commercial operation, but that's a matter of taste.

I don't see why my disagreement with Bonsaial1 on Kincaid need require either of us to respect each other any less, let alone cause us to be anything but civil in our discussion.

Bonsaial1 has pretty much said the same.

de gustibus non est disputandem (I flunked Latin!)