Bad Advice

Attila

Hi all.

I did not want to hijack Fred's thread about bad advice, so I started this one.

This year after repotting my two large satsuki azalea bonsai I realized that I almost killed them because I used the wrong soil mix.

Since trees don't always react to bad growing conditions in an obvious manner, I thought for a long time that they are doing fine and I know what I'm doing.
I was totally ignorant of what truly happened, and, worst of all, I was giving bad advice on this subject.

I thought I know what I am saying since I was talking from practical experience.
Well, it turned out that I was dead wrong and I completely misinterpreted my experience.

As someone who believes that a man's integrity is the most precious thing he can have, I find this phenomenon worrisome: We believe that we know the truth and unknowingly disseminate false information. This is especially dangerous since the internet makes it possible for a large number of people to be mislead.

I am very curious to hear if this happened to the members on this forum. I can imagine that these stories can be really funny sometimes. I also believe that we are eager to remember the bad advice we received. It is much more painful to admit to the bad advice we gave to others.

Here is a character-building question:
On your quest for knowledge, did it happen that you thought you are giving good advice which later turned out to be a complete disaster.

Best regards,
Attila

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John Dixon

Attila,

I am uncertain if you are referring to the suggestions to use kanuma soil for azelea, but if so, I must disagree with you. I fully understand that my opinion may not be "ideal" for the circumstances others have, but my suggestion of kanuma soil is based on factual, personal use. In Huntersville, NC about 750 feet above sea level in a temperate zone of North America, I have witnesses superior bloom, bud-back and overall health improvements with kanuma soil vs. a basic soil-less mix with 25% peat moss added for acidity. The "mix" was not bad, but kanuma had a superior performance advantage, in my opinion. When the trees come out of cold frame storage (soon) and are "up to speed", I will post a pic of one and let it speak for itself.

I have no doubt that your comments are well-meaning, and are definitely good advice for life, in general. If they were not intended as a retort to the kanuma advice, my apologies. If they were, then I can only interject that your experience and mine differ on the subject. If I lived in your area, I'm sure that my opinion could be changed, and vis versa for you. Since neither of us live where the person asking for advice does, we might both be proved wrong.

I do respect your objective and respectful manner of reparte. I have no doubt that you, as a person, are an attribute to the bonsai community. It is refreshing to have a forum where we can agree or disagree in an adult manner.

Warmest regards to you,

John

__________________
John Dixon

Si vis pacem parabellum

Stay off the trails of others, that's where the booby-traps are.

Attila

Hi John,

no,no,no...
it has nothing to do with you. I am really sorry if you had the slightest suspicion that this was triggered by your post. It has to do with my experience and the perils of giving advice to others.

Kanuma would not be so popular if it wasn't an excellent product for many geographical areas.
Sincere apologies to you.

Attila

Ralph

Okay guys, niceties aside, I want to swing this back to the kanuma thing, and attempt to learn something from your experiences here. So what is it about Kanuma? Does it retain to much water making it less than ideal in a wet climate? Or is it the other way around, to dry? I definitely would like to see those azaelas when they come out of the cold frame as well. I have some azaelas that may one day become potential bonsai material, and anything I can add to the grey matter storage bin for potential use later may be of help. Currently these azaelas are in large (10 gallon?) patio planters. The soil is a combination peat, gravel, and cotton burr compost. I add a small amount of vinegar to fish emulsion mix and give it to them once a month.
They seem to like it so far but their needs may change if they go into shallower pots.

John Dixon

Ralph,

The acidity is "built in" to the kanuma soil. Because of this, no additive is necessary and the pH stays constant. As far as the moisture content, look at it this way; you yourself just mentioned how the trees will be going from bigger containers into shallower ones. It would seem logical that some extra moisture-holding ability is a virtue, not a problem. Kanuma has this potential, albeit not grossly so.
My guess is that if you use too small a particle of kanuma, say .25" or less, the container MAY stay a little too wet. Screening the mixture to take out the finest particles is always helpful in combating this. I still use larger particles, over .25" near the bottom and use a finer mix for the upper half. This is a practice I use for all mix, not just kanuma (shohin and mame excluded). Some consider it unnecessary, but the biggest danger of too much moisture is always at the bottom of the container (at least in my experience), and the soil drying out (the finger test) is at the top. With the two different particle sizes, I have found a good compromise in moisture consistency. An added plus to the screening is the "sandy" particles you eliminate, work pretty good for cuttings. I use my akadama small particles for cuttings with very good success. Azalea are very easy to root, and the last cuttings I did in the kanuma "sand" (mixed with akadama) had 100% success.
Let me leave you with this, I love kanuma for azalea. I am not a recognized expert of anything, but it has worked for me well enough that it is my exclusive soil for azalea. If you happen to be at a "home improvemnt" store soon, I suggest this (if you can); purchase two identical azaleas (cheap $2-4) and use both kanuma, and whatever other mix to pot them up. Treat them equally, and see which does better horticulturally. I did this with two that my kids got from Lowe's. When in the standard soil, I had some leaf loss and marginal vigor, but it was "healthy" for the most part. The kanuma soil caused an explosion of new growth, and a substantial increase in fullness. That was one of the deciding factors for me, and it was an inexpensive experiment.
I hope this helps with your decision.

Attila,

Absolutely no offense was taken. I enjoyed your post, and your mannerisms are completely first rate. I can appreciate those who try to pass along good information based on experience, and not just plain theory. Any post you have in the future will be looked upon by me as worthy of consideration.


Enjoy the spring you two (and everyone else),

John

__________________
John Dixon

Si vis pacem parabellum

Stay off the trails of others, that's where the booby-traps are.

Attila

Ralph,

The inadequacy of Kanuma in hot climates (such as a big part of Texas and Southern California) is a bit of a mystery to me.

I know one thing for sure: Kanuma is very good for temperate climates, similar to Japan's. I lived many years in Vancouver, B.C. and those folks also use Kanuma. That's where I bought my two satsuki specimen bonsai five years ago. They used to grow in Kanuma for about 35 years before they got down here in California.

California is another story. Here summer temperatures get up into the 90s in the summer and it's dry. So I was puzzled to learn from local growers that Kanuma keeps the roots too wet. How can be too wet if the climate is hotter and dryer than Japan? I've never seen any explanation addressing this phenomenon. Nevertheless, the fact remains unchanged: the roots are soggy.

After spending many hours seeking for an answer, here is MY conclusion.

Because the high temperature during daytime, and due to the shallow bonsai pot and the extreme draining properties of the Kanuma medium, in this climate you have to water daily.
On the other hand, Kanuma retains a lot of water. You could wait a few days to let the medium evaporate the excess water before the next watering. However, doing so you will risk the medium becoming too dry and thus killing the tree in a couple of days.

The problem is caused by the fact that here the growing medium can turn from too wet into too dry in a few hours.

So, using Kanuma in a hot climate can result in a medium either too wet or too dry.

Azaleas require stable soil conditions. Kanuma can provide that in a temperate climate. During the first year Kanuma worked well with me here. The problem started after the second year when it started breaking down and retained more moisture.

Coarse peat moss is the professionals' choice here because it is much better in providing that required stability in my climate. In addition, it has the perfect PH (acid), very important for azaleas.

To further complicate the issue, peat moss can cause problems later, when the bonsai develops a large nebari, with a compact rootball. Because azalea has very fine roots, these roots can form a compact shield which makes it difficult for the water to penetrate. When peat moss becomes too dry, it repels water, like an air bubble. To prevent this, you need to add a very coarse medium that helps the water penetrate through this shield of roots. That's why I added 20%-30% pumice to the peat moss. Pumice does not break down easily and retains less water than Kanuma.

So, there you go. This is what I've learned so far. I hope this time I have the right answer. My azaleas will let me know for sure.

Attila

Attila

John,

I've just read your response to Ralph. You hit the nail right in the head with your observation that the top of the soil can become too dry while the bottom can remain soggy.
That's exactly what I meant when I mentioned either too dry or too wet conditions, or even both conditions present at the same time (!!!, top vs. bottom).
Here in California this problem is magnified exponentionally. The tree can be cooking at the bottom of the pot (the pot can become so hot that you hurt yourself by touching) while the roots are drying out on top.

Using large particle size at the bottom would help to solve the problem.

Kind regards,
Attila

John Dixon

Attila,

Likewise on your reply. It sounds like California conditions are a little too difficult to figure out for me. Having never lived there I can only sympathize with your dilemma.
Here in Charlotte, I've always heard our conditions are very similar to Tokyo. I don't really know.

What I do know is specimen azalea (allow me a Southernism) AIN'T cheap. You are wise to explore all options to maintain their health. Good luck.

John

__________________
John Dixon

Si vis pacem parabellum

Stay off the trails of others, that's where the booby-traps are.

TreeBay

A little Kanuma advertisement someone made here was moved to Classifieds.

Regards,

Matt

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