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4-Nov-2003
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#21 |
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bonsaiTALK ArchMaster
 
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Andy, you said it perfectly.
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Bonsai Northwest Inc, Melbourne, Australia Bonsai Flora Nursery in Yarraville, Melbourne |
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4-Nov-2003
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#22 | |
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Old Mister Crow
 
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Quote:
After all, there's no such thing as a tradition or context in which art is produced, and besides, twenty thousand years of human artistic expression cannot possibly have uncovered anything that you couldn't immediately reinvent yourself by simply opening your eyes. -Old Crow
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In love with trees Last edited by Carl Bergstrom : 4-Nov-2003 at 06:46 PM. |
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4-Nov-2003
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#23 | |
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bonsaiTALK Artisan
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Quote:
I had a much longer and more complex response on my screen when you posted this -- so elegant and on-point (as the lawyers say) that I just ditched mine. Thanks, br
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"... botanical plausibility" ~~riprap |
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4-Nov-2003
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#24 |
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bonsaiTALK Master
 
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Hey, we all believe, I think, in the rule of proportions (the perfect section), and since when was Fibonacci from Japan?
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David Yedwab |
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5-Nov-2003
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#25 |
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bonsaiTALK Journeyman
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Hello to all
Great discussion going on here. I find it ironic that the 'naturalistic' approach is considered a departure from the 'norm.' After all, in the beginning weren't bonsai meant to represent a wild tree in nature? Perfectly manicured trees are more like impressionistic representations of trees than what I would call 'naturalistic.' Don't get me wrong, I like classically styled trees as well. I think what is being discussed here isn't Japanese vs. American or European, it's more like traditional vs. non-traditional. And there's room for both. Some trees don't conform to all the rules and Japan is the originator of "the rules." But, I'll bet if you really look at some of the classically styled trees, you will find that even they break the rules on occaision. A jazz musician must first learn the standards before he starts improvising. Likewise, the aforementioned artists have learned "the rules" and are free to improvise. I love their work as much as the more traditional artists. Throughout history, art forms have broken with tradition and started different movements. Look at Picasso and DADA- "art doesn't have to be traditional. -Granville |
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5-Nov-2003
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#26 |
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Bonsai Doer
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A friend of mine worked in a cabinet shop. He had worked there for 7 years. One day while picking up cabinets for a job, I went to the shop to BS with my friend.
He told me that his arms had been hurting and he was tired all night. I asked him what it might be? He said that it hurt most when he worked on the table saw. I asked him if he did anything different, and he said no. I asked him to run some material through the saw. He picked up a board and started to run it through. As he neared the end of the board I could see his body all contorted all over the place. I almost started to laugh. I asked him " Did you know the guy that trained you well"? He said he did. I asked him if he was left handed? He said he was... Now.. how many of us are right handed and are still doing bonsai with our left hands? Will you wait 7 years to try something new. What Andy says has nothing to do with you! What Smith utters has nothing to do with you! Do bonsai your way! That is the way of the future. Your Future! Because nothing else matters....Al
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I been kidding the last seven years. no.... really! |
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5-Nov-2003
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#27 |
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Tree herder
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Hear hear Al.
Regards, TB/Chris.
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"Do not be hasty, that is my motto" -JRR Tolkien, The Two Towers. ----------------------------------- christopherguise.co.uk |
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5-Nov-2003
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#28 |
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bonsaiTALK Master Craftsman
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Good points, Al. My libertarian philosophy must be rubbing off on you.
 mkonig said: "I can not understand what the argument is all about. Is the intention of bonsai not to create a tree in miniature form and true to nature?" Hah, you'ld think wouldn't ya, but that's exactly what the squabble is about. One school of thought is that trees should look natural . If that means straight limbs that cross each other from the viewers perspective then so be it. A tree should represent its species as it grows in nature. The other school says that bonsai is about artistic representation of trees. If it happens to look natural that's fine but the emphasis is placed on art that will be pleasing to the eye. If I've got that wrong I'm sure someone will correct me.  You know there isn't a wrong or right answer here, nor do you have to only choose one path. What would be wrong with having highly naturalistic bonsai and highly refined artistic bonsai on the same bench? Not a thing in my book! Like Al said, your trees are YOUR bonsai future. Make of them what you will and by all means have fun in the process. Tony |
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5-Nov-2003
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#29 |
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I stand and stare a lot
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Hi Tony
well said! I have spend many years learning the priciples behind classical bonsai design and "copied" the styles of trees that are created using these rules. But....there comes a time when you start to put your own observations and your own creative elements in to your designs. Naturalistic does not mean that basic principles are ignored, just used in different ways. Trees evolve! Most of us do not start with mature specimens and whatever school of thought you follow, you have to work with the material you've got. As our trees mature they will change their image many times (as trees do in nature). Many "faults" such as crossing branches on mature trees are eliminated, not as a design option, but from horticultural necessity. Having said that, I don't think the discussion about which style of bonsai to follow will ever be resolved and for me thats a good thing. If no one questions, we would all be like sheep and follow the one in front. Challenge of thought is good for development, challenge of design provokes thought. Keep questioning and the future will be bright and diverse. Mike
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I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person |
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5-Nov-2003
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#30 | |
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bonsaiTALK Artisan
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Quote:
At the risk of sounding like the prig -- that's with a "g" -- of the group, I'm sorry to see this kind of cheerleading go on in the name of bonsai artistic freedom. What Andy or anybody else says about the norms of bonsai style has plenty to do with everybody's practice of the craft. It's the mindset that says "that has nothing to do with me" that is behind the fact that so many so-called bonsai by (chiefly, but not exclusively, American) practitioners look like nothing more than little shrubs in funny pots. This is excusable in people just starting up: there's a heck of a lot to learn. And as I have said in a different thread, there are masters who can break certain rules magnificently -- although usually they don't break all of them at once! But to practice bonsai for years and still wilfully disregard the norms that give significance to the art and allow enthusiasts from widely varying places and times to discuss and judge individual pieces meaningfully -- well, that's just wanking. Wanking. I think if some of those who wave a "libertarian" banner were to honestly examine their own practice of bonsai, they would have to admit that in their own work they try to conform to numerous traditional norms. Maybe just not all of them. After 30 years involvement with bonsai, I still feel like a beginner when I stand before a piece of material, ready to start work. Hope I never lose that in a silly fit of pride, thinking about "MY bonsai future" -- whatever that's supposed to mean. Barry
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"... botanical plausibility" ~~riprap |
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