The Zen Of Thread Hijacking.

Carl_Bergstrom

The idea is basically this, Al. While I appreciate many of the developments in naturalistic bonsai styling that we see coming from Walter, Nick Lenz, and numerous artists from around the world, I don't see any validity to the arguments that the modern Japanese idiom has boxed itself into an artist dead-end.

To me, this argument seems based on assumption that art must be shocking, revolutionary, radical, or progressive, in order to be Art instead of replica. I disagree. There is sufficient lattitude within the Japanese idiom for plentiful expression of creative genius.

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bonsaial1

Carl, thanks for clearing up what you said, I was not sure. Frankly I am of the heavily groomed, licked bonsai crowd. In fact I agree with all the things that Smith finds so desirable in Japanese bonsai. I am anal retentive when it comes to pinching and removing downward growing growth on my trees. I love them to be fully wired and have a purpose in mind. If anything, I lean towards traditionaly styled Japanese trees.

Although, I can see some of the points that Walter makes when it comes to forms. While Walter makes some incredable bonsai, none of them can actually be seen in the books. You will not find the rules conforming to the way he styles trees. But sometimes the rules don't have to fit to achieve that final result.

I'm getting ahead of myself, more to come in the Shinji Suzuki/Walter Pall crtitique thread. Boy this should be good!

We get a free ride, Walter won't be home for two or three weeks. (hummm.. he does have a laptop with him, I had to get him an extension cord for his power point presentation in the styling seminar) ( Carl your going to like this)

Al

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pdbbonsai

Carl...it is you!!!

Well said.

Paul

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Jay

My two cents.

As can be seen in many of my posts to other 'art discussion/ Traditional rules' threads, I look at the tree. As a novice who may never reach the level of being able to say why a certain tree works artistically, I want a Bonsai to invoke emotion.

When I look at a tree in a picture, on the net, or in person, I decide if I like it, if it 'moves' me. I do not take it apart and try and figure out what did or didn't work about the tree. Are the branches in the correct place, does the ratios fit etc are not what I look for. Perhaps I should.

Walter and Nick to name two are individuals who work with their trees and do what they feel the tree will want. They are fully capable of Traditional Style but go in a differing way (some of the time).

My appreciation of their trees is similar to Pauls, I like them or not based on the individual tree. I do not know if I can give a percentage but feel that Pauls 80 -90% is probably a good point to start. And, as he said, I too do not always love the trees that are from Traditional Artists and done in a traditional style.

Is it not the TREE that matters. I see the tree it evokes those emotions and I am pleased....... let it continue.

Jay

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K.A. Rutledge

There is a false premise that colors this entire discussion, so before someone else argues for or against "Japanese" styling, let me bring up the fact that there is nothing Japanese about bonsai styling.

The species involved may be Japanese, the materials used in a display may be Japanese or depict an image (like on a scroll) that is culturally referential to Japan, but nothing about styling bonsai is Japanese. This silly preoccupation with departing from Japanese styling or differentiating one's work from the "Japanese style" of bonsai is just plain ridiculous.

The top quality bonsai that are made by top Japanese artists are not "Japanese" in their flavor or design, they're merely good. They are merely examples of artistry utilized in design. Dispensing with the artistic elements in the design does not make your tree unJapanese or Western in design. It just makes it less effective, less aesthetically pleasing.

What Walter is doing with his naturalistic stylings is not unJapanese, but instead is just a different stylistic track within the realm of artistry. The Japanese were doing it long before he was doing it. In fact they were doing it long before he was born - something that in no way diminishes the significance of what he's doing now. However, he risks much in the way that he purposfully removes certain specific artistic affectations from his work in an effort to create a literal image of nature instead of a metaphoric one.

Again, this is not unJapanese, it's just more literal and less metaphoric. By the same token, if you believe that bonsai that are created using effective, artistic, aesthetic elements in the design are just copies of the Japanese "style," you are wrong. Arguments based on this error lead nowhere productive.

What you have to come to grips with is the fact that we here in the West rarely if ever get to see the poor examples of bonsai from Japan. Instead, we see the top level work, the work that effecively utilizes artistry to the extent that it has a high level of appeal. If you saw the poor bonsai made by enthusiasts in Japan - just like we often see the poor efforts of American or European enthusiasts - perhaps you'd realize the difference between "Japanese bonsai" and "successful artistry." The images we see coming from Japan are not "Japanese," they're simply "quality." We can do the same and that does not make us copycats.

The top Japanese artists understand how to use artistic fundamentals in their work. Good bonsai display is very basic in its form, and as such is quite powerful. Simple is powerful in most every case. However, the Japanese did not invent these artistic fundamentals and there is nothing Japanese about how they are used in bonsai. The good examples of bonsai embody these fundamentals and poor examples do not. This does not make the poor examples unJapanese; just bad.

When Japanese artists have a hard time swallowing the stylings or ideals put forth by a Westerner, it is not culture clash. Rather it is artists having a hard time swallowing methods that circumvent art.

So, if you're going to argue the relative merits and faults of bonsai styles, argue relvant issues rather than invented, misunderstood, misapplied ones. There is nothing cultural about effective design. There is nothing cultural about neatness or messiness. There is nothing cultural about bonsai beyond the species or the elements or images used in display. So argue artistry and argue effectiveness and argue metaphor, but when you start arguing Japanese and American, you're beating up a straw man.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

Carl_Bergstrom

Fair enough, Andy.

Could you give us an alternative term? Perhaps "neoclassical"? Is there something preferable?

-Carl

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Thomas_J.

I'm sure everyone here knows I don't usually jump in on these discussions. But from what Andy said, I really think he put the icing on the cake, meaning it's finished. I don't see how anyone can explain it any better. It's not about culture as he said, but rather about art. Now if you don't believe that bonsai is an art, then you will probably only see it as a culture thing and it will always be the Japanese style or the European style etc. I for myself like the natural style very much, but not any where near as much as what I see in the art form that the Japanese use, or for that matter the Chinese style also.
Thomas J.

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Attila

Andy,
shame on you.

You've just killed a perfectly good thread that could have gone all the way (into a full-blown saloon brawl).

Too bad, but this thread is toast.

Attila

mkonig

I can not understand what the argument is all about.
Is the intention of bonsai not to create a tree in miniature form and true to nature?
Look around you folks!
What does Walter see in his suroundings? He lives in the Alps, where trees struggle at high altitudes, in poor soil and extreme weather conditions. These trees will develop a form that portrais this struggle and no doubt influence Walter in his designs. It is what he sees!
Living in central England I see massive Oak trees, Alder, Birch, Beech, Larch and Scotch Pine, but not of the kind that would be seen in the alps. The trees here grow large and majestic with big trunks and large crowns. That is how I try to portray these species in my bonsai designs.

Look inside you and look around you, thats all the guidance you need.

Mike

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