Zen and Bonsai

zenwarrior

"The question I'd have to ask, though, is when did trees or plants in pots become bonsai instead of trees or plants in pots?" -Craig Cowing

My guess would be right about the time people started calling them "Bonsai".
Just as there was no such thing as "ZEN" until people started calling it "ZEN".


With the risk of facing persecution for using the terms "east" and "west", one thing I've learned in studying "eastern" philosophy about the "west" is that we have this obsession with trying to make everything black and white. Everything has to hold an exact definition, when did this or that start, how did it directly effect this or that.

I think the east understands more the limits of language in speaking of these topics like zen and how it may relate to everything else.. Maybe that is why a few words in Japanese etc. can mean so much more than we could ever begin to describe in English. Many things are simply understood. I speak very little, but I work with the Japanese language everyday, eight hours a day, and this comes up all the time. "Lost in translation" as they say. Zen is merely and word my friends and so is "Bonsai".

the big question:

So what are characteristics of bonsai that you think or feel are Zen?
go ahead and keep trying to describe these characteristics and how they relate to our perception of the meaning of this word "zen", the fact remains these characteristics make up the wonderful experience which we currently have labeled "Bonsai", and they are shared by everyone.



oh yeah, and sorry for all the quotation marks.....

__________________



Failure is the key to success; each mistake teaches us something.

-Morihei Ueshiba

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rockm

"I think the east understands more the limits of language in speaking of these topics like zen and how it may relate to everything else.. Maybe that is why a few words in Japanese etc. can mean so much more than we could ever begin to describe in English. Many things are simply understood."

The east has no better understanding of language. It is simply different. It is no more efficient or better than the west, in my opinion. Having worked for a Japanese company for awhile, I found the strengths and shortcomings among Japanese and American managers to be pretty much the same for communications and management skills. Those strength and weaknesses were in different areas, however.

The Japanese have no better grasp on language use than anyone else. They do have a different though process than the West. For instance, when I worked at the Japanese company, directions from the airport to the office for arriving Japanese managers were faxed to travelling managers arriving from the home office in Tokyo. When translated-it was clear they were based not on road numbers or street names, but on local landmarks. Reading them was quite amusing. "Turn at big pine tree, look for big brown building, Turn at the cow" was the final line in the directions (our office bordered a large cow pasture). Now, you could call that a "better" understanding of how to use language. I'd just call it a different way to give directions.--a little less efficient than using street numbers and addresses, but it got you where you wanted to go--if the cows were out.

The argument that the Japanese somehow have such a superior grasp on some concepts as to make them untranslatable-- or, by extension, above the comprehension--of Westerners is a hollow one. It has been used to subtly tell Westerners they can't make bonsai, because they cannot feel nature as the Japanese do--which is a crock. The cultures are different, with different ways of communicating and comprehending. There is no cultural superiority when it comes to understanding anything spiritual. It's just different. The east has no corner on profundity or complexity.

jsj

"The Japanese have no better grasp on language use than anyone else. They do have a different though process than the West. For instance, when I worked at the Japanese company, directions from the airport to the office for arriving Japanese managers were faxed to travelling managers arriving from the home office in Tokyo. When translated-it was clear they were based not on road numbers or street names, but on local landmarks. Reading them was quite amusing. "Turn at big pine tree, look for big brown building, Turn at the cow" was the final line in the directions (our office bordered a large cow pasture). Now, you could call that a "better" understanding of how to use language. I'd just call it a different way to give directions.--a little less efficient than using street numbers and addresses, but it got you where you wanted to go--if the cows were out."

I agree that easterners do tend to have a different thought process than many Westerners. Many scholars argue that this has to do with how Eastern philosophies developed that were fundamentally different than the Western traditions evolution its modern foundation in Cartesian dualism (particularly the Anglo-American Tradition, since some 'Continental', and now much Cognitive science is not dualistic but rather views the mind as embodied as Eastern philosophies do).
However I do not believe giving directions based on landmarks has anything to do with culturally different thought processes. It is simply a different way of giving directions. I knew many people, growing up in Los Angeles, who gave landmark style directions instead of street name/number style directiosn or even mileage directions. Ive also known some people from Japan (Okinawa in particular) who used conventional street name/numbers for directions.



"The argument that the Japanese somehow have such a superior grasp on some concepts as to make them untranslatable-- or, by extension, above the comprehension--of Westerners is a hollow one. It has been used to subtly tell Westerners they can't make bonsai, because they cannot feel nature as the Japanese do--which is a crock. The cultures are different, with different ways of communicating and comprehending. There is no cultural superiority when it comes to understanding anything spiritual. It's just different. The east has no corner on profundity or complexity."

I agree that no culture is inherently superior and should not be treated as such. However I do not feel that was the essence of the statement being made. It is not an argument of culturally superiority to recognize that some cultures have evolved language that is more concise in regards to certain concepts. English cannot express every concept known to man the exact same way Japanese or Russian or Classic Greek can. Some languages handle some concepts better than others.
For instance, it is well known the classic Greeks had several words to be used in different contexts for the English word of "love".
Agape= "Christian love"
Philia= love between friends
storge= familial love
eros= attraction with sexual connotation..
While still part of the Western tradition, the ancient Greeks had more flexible language in regards to the concepts of love than contemporary anglo-americans. This does not make their culture superior by any means, just more effective at communicating certain concepts using language because language evolved differently in different places.
Regards,
-James