Zen and Bonsai

Carl_Bergstrom

Dude....Eastern is, like, a state of mind, not a state of geography....



Crow

Advertisement

Kansai

Hmm...I think this would be me. I have absolutely no acquaintance with Zen whatsoever, and yet I do perceive a relationship between bonsai and Zen. However, since I have absoutely no knowledge of Zen, I can't describe my perception of that relationship. I'm sure if you know anything whatsoever about Zen yourself you know what I mean.

I am, to tell the truth, glad to know that you are not using this to attack me. I hate being attacked. Even though it looks an awful lot like you are using this to draw out and attack certain people, it's reassuring to know that's not what you're doing.

Your research sounds facinating. Is it scholarly? What is its thrust? Do you have a hypothesis? Researching misconceptions by asking people to describe their misconceptions--now that's bold.

Zenfully yours,
DR

zenwarrior

Darn, I told myself I wouldnt post in this thread. So much for self control huh? Like the rest of mankind I cannot resist the temptation of expressing the inexpressible. So, that being said, let me choose my words carefully....



The most beautiful things in this world cannot be communicated through mere language. The moment you begin to utter the word, the meaning is lost. There is no difference between you and I, a rock or a tree....fundamentally every"thing" is the same. In my opinion, this is the reason we get pleasure out of nurturing these small twiggy visions of ourselves. "Zen" is merely a word. Take from it what you will.





.

__________________



Failure is the key to success; each mistake teaches us something.

-Morihei Ueshiba

rockm

"There is no difference between you and I, a rock or a tree....fundamentally every"thing" is the same."

Uh, is this "zen?" Good lord. Fundamentally--what's fundamentally? We talking cellular, emotional, instinctual? A blind man can tell there are fundamental differences in a rock, a tree and me (well, maybe, I'm not the best example, so lets use "a human being"). This is the Western concept of "zen"--a romantic, hazy construct that proffers fuzzy nonsequiturs disguised as nuggets of wisdom...

I think the association of Zen and bonsai is largely one created by western romantic myth, abetted by "the Karate Kid" movies ;-). The "zen" we in the west usually conjure up is the one that's been mentioned before--the artificial, hugely romantic Tea ceremony-associated ideal developed in Japan a hundred years (not a thousand years) ago. The ideal was created by a monk with enough marketing savvy (although it wasn't called that then) to know the mystical appeal of such a concept and its ability to sell hand-crafted tea utensiles. Some research into the tea ceremony can be very enlightening for those doing bonsai...

There is a HUGE difference between the idea of some undefined "zen" aesthetic and the concepts of wabi and sabi--which are aesthetic ideals, not a belief system. Wabi and Sabi are really what we're talking about when you discuss the "zen" of a bonsai. The ideals contained in those terms are basically rustic melancholy and "informed" age--a rough approximation--, which give objects a certain patina of age or feeling. Nothing more nothing less. These two ideals can be contained in anything material, bonsai included.

You cannnot do better bonsai by being "zen" about it. In fact, if you use the "zen" concept popular in the West today, your bonsai work will probably suffer. You have to be fairly brutal with a tree to make it into a nice bonsai. If you believe that it's the same as you, you're not going to be tough enough with it because you might "hurt" it. The tree doesn't really care, because it can't care or hurt--it's incapable of both. It can die, or course, or struggle to survive, but the "will" to live is inherent in all living things...Let's not even start with a discussion about the "karmic" implications of chopping off a defenseless tree's limbs...Karma has accumulated an even sillier Western interpretation than Zen ;-)

malhomme

Let me tell you that I am absolutely not using this to draw anyone out. I am writing an essay (I just enjoy writing essays) and need to understand the pathology before I can address it.

Cheers,
Jim

ethanopia

Well I was going to avoid posting here becasue it does seem rather cliché.

And the west does have a cliché idea of what the whole Zen thing is about.

I gained a much better understanding about it from reading a few books by Thich Nhat Hanh. The way he explains it, awareness has everything to do with Bonsai and life in general.

Awareness is taking the time to be aware of every moment, practicing awareness can be putting on your shoes breathing, meditating, pulling weeds, chopping vegetable, typing, walking int he garden, whatever you do. You do it with a complete awareness.

We tend to go through life on auto pilot not taking in the world around us. Zen philosophy flys in the face of that and will help you enjoy every moment for what it is. A beautiful moment. Next time you work on trees concentrate on taking your time, enjoy every little task, and be aware that you are interacting with nature. Even if you kill a tree you know it will compost and become another tree some day, just like we will compost and become part of a tree some day.

rockm

For what it's worth", do "Zen" monks sit around contemplating rock gardens and bonsai while they meditate? I don't really think they do.

Not that I know that much about meditation, but isn't it meant to be introspective and inwardly directed? Doesn't that mean "Zen" exterior stiumuli--like scenery, bonsai, stone gardens, etc would distract the person doing the meditating?

Also for what it's worth, realizing that every day offers new possibilities is hardly Zen. Bonsai does make one more aware of the natural world, its seasons, their possibilities and impossibilities and other things, but so do farming and hunting

zenwarrior

"Also for what it's worth, realizing that every day offers new possibilities is hardly Zen"

-rockm


You sure do know alot about "Zen" huh?

And why can't farming and hunting be Zen ? No one said rock gardens, tea ceremonies, meditation, and bonsai were the only things Zen.

And I agree with you that it seems every time we speak of Zen somebody always has to bring up Karate Kid. Was that a shot at my avatar?

__________________



Failure is the key to success; each mistake teaches us something.

-Morihei Ueshiba

Attila

Gosh, aren't we all cynical today!

Hey, Jim

Next time you want an answer to this question, you better talk or e-mail to a zen monk who is seriously involved with bonsai. He/she could point out original traits of zen aesthetics commonly used in bonsai, and traits shared with other cultures as well. A zen budist temple would be a good start.


Talking to us, unapologetically zen-bashing bunch, will make you more confused than you were before. The only people able to answer your question are those deeply familiar with zen aesthetics and history.

However, if you want to hear zen-mockery, this is a good place to start.