When Artistry Interferes with Objectivity

Aaron_K

Quite the opposite. The fact that both examples will be found in nature would, I hope, act as a source of inspiration for artistic styling of a bonsai that someone might refer to.

While styles of tree fall into certain catergories (semi cascade, informal upright etc etc), I feel that there should be no hard and fast rules on the actual refinement or artistic styling of a tree. Every tree is different, with its own individual qualities and if you like - personality, that is either natural or imposed upon by the artist.

I do not wish to re-open the art in bonsai arguement, mainly because its been flogged to death and ends up in deadlock.

My point is that both examples presented by Al and Will, are both equally "valid" and make for stunning specimens. As such, I fail to see how one or the other conform to "basic principles of artistry" or vice versus, as they are opposites of each other.

Regards,

Aaron

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Carl_Bergstrom

Aaron, I simply take issue with assertions that because someone does A successfull and someone else does B successfully, anything you do is valid as art. This is plain wrong. There are successful compositions and there unsuccessful compositions, and there are perfectly reasonable, logical reasons that lie behind the differences. Andy has discussed these in more than adequate detail in his e-book: http://www.andyrutledge.com/book/



Here on BonsaiTALK, you may be right.

I think that says more about the participants than it does about the subject matter.

Best regards,
Carl

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Aaron_K

This is exactly the point I was trying to make. Both Will and Al present examples of successful compositions for both the nebari being under the slant of the tree and nebari "counter balancing" the slant of the tree. I wasn't making any assertions for or against the notion that anything you do is valid as art. You may style a tree how you so desire, whether it works well in the composition is another matter. Some stylizations may "break the rules" and break them successfully, others may not acheive the same.

What I did advocate, if you will, is the bringing out the individual beauty of a tree, which I think I would be correct in saying, all of us strive for.

Regards,

Aaron

Carl_Bergstrom

Very good! Then I think that we are in relatively close agreement on both the value of artistic design principles and on the importance of sensitivity to the unique circumstances of each tree that an artist confronts.

With my best regards,
Carl

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mike_p

Bonsai is an art. If what you have done adds artistic value to the tree, then you have done the right thing.

Mike
PS, read the de Kooning quote.

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Bonsai is a way of life.
MP@BBB Studio

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Craig Cowing

Practical considerations: a slanting tree in a pot without a supporting root on the inside of the lean may (not always, but depending on the tree) may be unstable. My wife has a Black Hills Spruce, a collected tree, and it is a slant style tree. It isn't very big, about 14" but it is impossible to keep it secured in the pot at the angle she wants because it doesn't have anything under the lean to hold it up, and the root ball is rather sparse.

A tree growing in nature is more likely to have soil underneath it as oposed to a shallow pot, with a rootball to hold it in place. I think that not having a supporting root on a slanting bonsai is fine depending on the tree and the feeling one wants to convey. The supporting root inside the lean might give more of a feeling of rootedness and security IMHO. A tree without the supporting root can also have a feeling of stability, though, like a literati tree that is leaning in a particular direction with the pot giving visual and actual stability.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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Carl_Bergstrom

Mike,

I've read the de Kooning quote - and grimaced - many times now, thank you. I consider that sentiment to be entirely wrong.

Given de Kooning's talent as an artist, I rather suspect that you are taking his words out of context. But I do not know enough about the original source of this remark, nor about de Kooning's own philosophy of art, to be able to say that with any degree of certainty.

-Carl

Edit: Interestingly, Mike your very own remarks in this very post seem to contradict the quotation.

If the concept of "artistic value" has any meaning at all, then there must be ways to decrease it, and ways to increase it. Presumably decreasing artistic value is not as good as increasing artistic value --- and thus in art one idea is decided not as good as another.

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Frogboy

As I tend to take everything with a grain of salt, I always viewed the de Kooning quote as an unfinished statement, which I would personally follow with "but in practice, both ideas might be crap. Or not."

Frog

mike_p

Hi Carl
I think, and I could be wrong, that De Kooning is saying that art is an individual undertaking, not a collective enterprise.
So often, the disussions on bonsai forums take the attitude that it's "my way, or the highway". We all see thing differently because we're individuals. Rembrandt and Picasso could have looked at the same person, and when their visions were put on canvas, you wouldn't have known it.

Regards

Mike

__________________
Bonsai is not a hobby.
Bonsai is a way of life.
MP@BBB Studio

There is no way to happiness. Happiness is the way
Gautama Buddha