When Artistry Interferes with Objectivity

RonMartin(deceased)

I guess we both thank you Will. At least I do. Can't speak for Al.
It was an easy thing for me to agree with him this time. He mentioned the term "visual weight". Just about the only thing that I have seen here that really directly relates to bonsai.
Visual weight has little if nothing to do with actual weight. It does however have something to do with making for a good composition.
There is no physics to it Will, just artistic necessity. We are after all doing bonsai not landscaping. Like it or not there is a big difference between bonsai and trees found in nature.

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Will_Heath

Ron might I suggest that you actually read my last post? There you will find that as far as the artistic side goes, Al and myself are in agreement.

I disagree with you Ron, there are small, not big differences between trees in nature and with bonsai. Nature still dictates the needs of the plant and the way it grows. In fact, the only differences are the container and our influences.

Will

Will_Heath

Simplifying the matter...

The point is lost on a tree that has only a slight slant. Let's take the extreme here in a semi or a full cascade, this debate would be senseless as any roots on the lean side would not be visible anyhow, in fact strong opposite rootage on a cascade is very appealing.

Keeping the above in mind, I feel that the more the slant, the more it will need rootage on the opposite side. The less the slant, the less the need for the counter-balance.

In closing, the need for rootage on the side of the lean increases with the amount of lean that the tree has. As the tree leans more, the roots on the lean side become more unnoticeable.

Will

RonMartin(deceased)

That should be enough shouldn't it.
Who was it that said "Don't make your bonsai look like trees. Make your trees look like bonsai "

Will_Heath

Actually Ron, it should be "Don't make your trees look like bonsai, make your bonsai look like trees."

Today I have come to the conclusion that you have never offered me anything in the way of learning, in fact, you have too often distracted from the effort. For my own educational purposes, I must ignore any future comments.

Good luck in all you do Ron,

Will Heath

RonMartin(deceased)

Fine by me

bnsaijim

"I am curious as to why you would feel that this debate is asinine, is there not something to be learned here?"

Second question first. There's that adage about teaching pigs to sing... It's been my observations that most things said in these forums seem to fall onto deaf ears. Folks won't admit to it but the reality is that most won't accept new input. I'm not saying I'm guiltless or that this is an absolute- this is just an observation of how things tend to go.

Perhaps there is something to be learned here; perhaps its not so much about the design at hand howeve that is what I will stick to.

I feel that when one brings analagous "place holders", the argument gets even further away from the truth of the matter and increasingly more "asinine". Why? Because we start out with an exercise in futility and then throw in engine hoists and heavy equipment. Don't forget the peppering of insults, name-calling and faberge' egg personalities.

Why this tree "works" or doesn't has nothing to do with the aforementioned drivel.

Talk about the tree at hand in terms of artistic and/or natural growth characteristics; address it directly and get bonsai out of "elementary school"...

__________________
Jim Stone
Seki Bonsai Studio
sekibonsai.com
Santa Fe, TX

Attila

Finally.

If the center of gravity of the leaning tree falls WITHIN the area covered by the compressed roots on the lean side, the compressed roots have the ability to hold the tree. In this case there is no real need for counterbalance opposite to the lean side. This is what Al was demonstrating.

If the center of gravity falls BEYOND the surface covered by the compressed roots, there will be a need for counterbalance opposite to the lean side. This is what Will was trying to emphasize.
And it is very true, that a cascading bonsai would look ridiculous without roots away from the lean.

So, guys, both of you have truth in what you are saying.

As for the insults, that's part of the entertainment for the rest of us.

I have to admit that I am a hockey fan, and fights are part of the game. As long as you don't hurt each-other too much, it's all good.

Take care
Attila

P.S.: Yesterday we had a lot of fun watching Walter Pall and his demo at Descanso Gardens. He mentioned BonsaiTalk and said that "you guys" all know how to write, but not too many know how to read each other's posts. This demo was very special to me since I learned something new and exciting about how to bring the beauty out of a trunk that seems boring.

But that's another subject.

bnsaijim

"This debate centers on slanting / cascading bonsai and not on informal uprights. Although on the informal upright bonsai that you showed, the rootage is in fact on the side away from the lean. "

The universal theme is how does rootage contribute to design. The underlying assumption, with whichj I concur, is that a specific style is indicated by it's roots.

I prefer not to lump trees into the broad categories but since you seem to require pigeonholing I'll entertain you.

Your tree is barely an informal upright. The visual center of gravity is weakly over the root base, there is strong directional movement to the left and I therefore contend that while you may not consider it a slant style it is subject to the very elements that make the tree that started this discussion succesful.

Your tree on the other hand lacks significant rootage on the right side. Because of this deficiency my brain keeps waiting for it to seesaw back to the right again.

While trees in nature often hang precariously, some even knowing full well they are in violation of physical and artistic laws.

So, while nature provides us with inspiration and some appeal to "law", as does "Artistry", neither provides all the answers.

Bonsai is NOT simply a tree in a pot. Perhaps it once was but not by modern definition. It requires artistry. It is a comprehensive image of miniaturization, naturalism and age. What works in nature does not always make good bonsai. What makes good art does not always make good bonsai.

"Don't make your trees look like bonsai, make your bonsai look like trees."

I'm starting to detest this Naka-ism almost as much as "let the birds fly through". Hmmm. It doesn't give one license to use nature as the ultimate guide. Maybe this is simply saying stop producing S-curved poodle padded Karate Kid cookie cutter mallsai. Reciting it till the cows come home certainly doesn't make you any kind of sage.

__________________
Jim Stone
Seki Bonsai Studio
sekibonsai.com
Santa Fe, TX