What if you grew one this way........

eminart

So, in my few short months of bonsai experience, I've learned that the majority of trees are grown, chopped, grown, rechopped, etc in order to get the size and shape desired. I understand that if a tree were kept small and not allowed to grow freely that it would take a very long time to achieve a thick trunk.

However, I was thinking about this (while at work).......

A tree that is grown and chopped will certainly have a mature trunk more quickly than if it where not allowed to grow freely, but how long does it take to do ALL the chops and all the branch refinement? Years, right? Probably at least 10 years to get a nice bonsai.

So, what if the same tree were planted in the ground and only allowed to grow to the desired height. While it was growing it could be wired and pruned to get the desired shape and branch placement but not allowed to grow any taller than what the finished tree would be. I know you'll say that it will take a very long time for the trunk to mature, but would it really take more than the same 10 years that it took to get the chopped tree?

And, without chopping, there are no scars. And there would be much less risk of killing the tree.

I know it would be a slow process, but I'm not sure I"m convinced that it would take longer than going through the trunk chop process. Also, taper would still develop. I've seen it in trees and shrubs "pruned" by cattle. The reason that trunks thicken quickly when a tree is allowed to grow freely is that the trunk puts on extra girth to support all the new growth. But, a tree that is being pruned into a bonsai will also have a lot of growth and leaves but they'll be in a more compact "tree" shape. I know there won't be as much as if it were growing straight up unchecked but I still believe the tree would thicken considerably over a ten year period.

So, what do you think? Any reasons why it would not work?

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shirefox

The first problem is that you would still have to "chop" the tree. Assuming that you want the tree to have the same height and base thickness as a tree grown in another way, it will reach this height many times over while attaining the desired thickness. So you will have to chop, but instead of doing it at some fraction of the desired height, you would chop at the desired height several times. While this would hide potential scars along the tree, you would now have another problem.

A tree grown in good conditions will probably grow straight and without movement. While it will have taper, its taper will be over 10 ft - 100ft. Such taper would be almost unnoticable over the length of a 1-2 ft tall tree. Your apex would include a trunk almost as big as the base. Hence wouldn't you essentially have a log in a pot, instead of a natural looking tree growing at an unnaturally short height?

Sorry, if I have misunderstood your proposition, but just my humble opinion on your idea.

andrew lenden

A heavy foliage burden in itself will not thicken a trunk at all quickly, for that you need vigourous extension growth both below and above ground, yes with lots of leaves the plant will produce lots of sugars which the tree will need to transport but this is done in a very thin layer, which generally speaking adds to bark production rather than wood. this can be used to good effect to develop mature bark but not to build trunks.

Rather than succesive trunk chops you can allow branches to grossly overgrow but the lower branches will need to allow to grow a lot more than the upper branches to get taper, this is working against a trees natural tendancy to be most vigourous at the topmost and outermost points and as you battle with this it can retard growth to the point of non existent trunk thickening. If you are working with a bush rather than a tree this method can work well however. The last problem I can think of with your method is that when you are happy with your trunk and remove sacrifice branches you are left with big scars all over the tree that at the same point with the trunk chopped tree they would all be healed apart from the top one or two.

So in an apically dominant tree you are using this vigour to your advantage with succesive chops whereas with sacrifice branches you are battling against it. I suppose every couple of years you could cut back all growth to the trunk and then allow free growth and repeat again to avoid the large scars but this to me seems like a hard way to do it and still involves cutting off the most vigourous upper shoots that we need for thickening to avoid losing (or not developing) taper. hope this gives you more to think about in work, warm regards Andrew

eminart

Nonexistent as in none or nonexistent as in not much? Because, I'm talking about letting this go on for 10 or 15 years. I know it would be painfully slow thickening, but wouldn't it still happen over such an extended period of time? I mean, couldn't you let the sapling grow into the basic shape, wire it, and then work on developing the branch placement? And after that just work on getting the branches proportional (larger on bottom, smaller up higher) and ramification for the next several years?

I don't know but it just seems possible to me. Anyway, I don't think I'd have that kind of patience anyway. Results would be very gradual and difficult to see even if it were possible. I'm just curious. I'll probably just stick the old chop and grow method, but maybe, just maybe I'll try one of my zelcova seedlings that way if I have an extra.

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agraham

em,

Think of the old stunted pines and junipers that are often dug up.What you are talking about is what nature does in some instances....but it takes much more than several years.It can be done,but it would be a slow process indeed.

andy

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andrew lenden

The problem here is to get a trunk base to trunk height ratio of anywhere near to 6 to 1 the lower branches will be far too thick and need to be removed at least once whilst the upper branches will need to have been removed numerous times as they have threatened to overtake the lower branches so any work on placement and ramification will be a waste of time. As said before trunk building this way can work very well on more shrubby types with pruning to maintain a single trunk and the plants habit of greater vigour low down to provide girth and taper. I have a japanese katsura (cercidiphyllum japonicum) thats responded nicely to this method, kind regards Andrew.

bonsaikc

Eminart,
What you are suggesting has been tried innumerable times, and has always been rejected as producing an inferior product in a much longer time, not shorter. The tried and true principle is that you can work on the trunk or the branches, but not both at the same time. This is because the very act of keeping the tree small reduces all its growth, not just the height. Trunk chopping was developed as a way to achieve larger trunk girths in shorter amounts of time. 5 to 10 years isn't really very long in the timeline of a tree, which you will learn as your months of experience stretch into years.

Your trunk chops need not be major scar producers if you treat them correctly. I highly recommend you find a very experienced enthusiast or master to learn from. This will prevent you from making my mistake: wasting 9 years trying to reinvent the wheel.

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eminart

Oh, don't worry I plan to keep rolling right along with regular ole round wheels. I was just thinking about growth patterns and stuff while I was at work. You've all brought up some very good points as I knew you would. I agree that trunk chopping must be the easiest and best way to go. It's just that I was one of those kids that always asked, "why?" Now I know. I see the point that andrew made -- it would be very difficult to keep the branches in proportion to the trunk. So, thanks for the info folks! Now I'm off to watch 'Bama wallop the Gators on the b-ball court.

--scott

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pootsie

Scott:

Check this out:
http://www.interworx.com.au/users/brian/first.htm

pootsie