U.S. vs. Overseas Bonsai...

Carl_Bergstrom

Nonsense, Al. Like any other art form, bonsai has its schools of thought and its lineages of influence. Since any work of art rests in the context of those that come before it, you can't get away from seeing a piece in the context of its predecessors, tradition, and influences.

Imagine a beautiful neoclassical bonsai canopy formed by an underlying Yangzhou coiling branch structure. The contrast might be invisible to the uninitiated - but what connesuer could fail to notice and react, emotionally, to this deviation from the familiar?

Best regards,
Carl

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bonsaial1

Ethnic influances, and nuance is another thread. In that context you are absolutely correct. But in the context of this thread about comparing the US to overseas, it is moot. We need to stick to the comparison and get rid of the stigma of who is better. Comparing us to Europe or China or Korea for that matter is not what make our bonsai better. To paste a label on it as " Made in America" and then expect it to be cut some slack because it fits the American Image is ludicrous. We have to step up to the bar. The bar is there, be it Japan, Europe or Korea. It is our choice to meet and excede it or continue to fail miserably.

Carl, I think its time for the cultural nuance thread again. The last one got butchered, maybe you could start a new one.

Bonsai-al

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Olympic Gold Medals:
China-45
USA-27
Great Britain-17

Total medal leader: USA with 87
The winningest Olympian of all time, USA's Michael Phelps with 8 gold medals
Medals stolen from US due to skewed judging-2

Carl_Bergstrom

Here I agree 100%.



I think I repressed that memory. Care to remind me?

-Carl

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In love with trees

bonsaial1

...on second thought...maybe repression is a good thing..



Seven schools of thought?

Bonsai-al

__________________
Olympic Gold Medals:
China-45
USA-27
Great Britain-17

Total medal leader: USA with 87
The winningest Olympian of all time, USA's Michael Phelps with 8 gold medals
Medals stolen from US due to skewed judging-2

weeijk

Hi Jeremy,

The Chinese !! originaly started with bonsai.
You're right about that Chinese see buisiness where ever there is buisiness.

Just a note, regards Wessel

Will_Heath

You are exactly right Al, however the artist can not help but to be influenced buy the culture he is surrounded by. This is why Japanese paintings are different than Europeans, etc.


EDIT: After posting my reply to Al's comment on the previuos page, I read this



Better said and well put!


Will

John Dixon

Let's put this is perspective:

Would a thirsty man turn down a fresh, ice-cold glass of water because it came from a certain "place"? If he does, then he's an idiot and should be culled from the herd.

I consider bonsai a parallel to this analogy. Why would we ignore any bonsai strictly because of it's geographical origin? That's ludicrous. And, more importantly, why can't different styles ALL be considered "standards"?
Case in point, Walter Pall. His styling is decidedly naturalistic, and while beautiful and well done, I personally do not subscribe "exclusively" to it. This is not to say I disagree with it (because I don't) but I still admire the more traditional stylings with "room for the birds to fly through". Because of this, I support BOTH styles. I also have examples of both in my collection. Without some variety, I would not enjoy bonsai as much as I do. That's why I don't feel any one nationality can lay claim to being the "standard" in bonsai. Each individual must decide for themself what the "standard" is. Those of us with a little more experience should be careful not to alienate beginners from any particular "regional style" for unjustly prejudicial reasons.

It was mentioned that Americans may have the preverbial "chip on their shoulder". This may be somewhat true, and possibly we are too defensive and prone to angry reparte, but one thing has to happen first. You have to be willing to knock the chip off. If you do that, aren't you just as guilty of being vindictive and argumentative as us colonials? Just an opinion.

Season's greetings everyone,

John

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John Dixon

Si vis pacem parabellum

Stay off the trails of others, that's where the booby-traps are.

saint

Not being an American, I have been loathe to stick my nose into this thread, but I do have a couple of observations to make as an outsider.

1. There are many talented bonsai artists in the US. Make no mistake about that.

2. In the US there are also a LARGE number of people who quickly use the title "bonsai master" to promote themselves and their bonsai classes. Not many of these "masters" have talent. (actually I seem to have noticed that the real masters are the humbler people)

3. Many people who thump their chests in patriotic fervour about "Bonsai in the USA!!!" know nothing about bonsai outside of the US that would allow them to make an honest comparison.

4. I am not aware of an American contest that can equal the Ginko Awards in Europe. (It may exist, I just don't know of it), But I think the major challenge in the US (which is a challenge because of its size) is to make people aware of bonsai as a fine art and not just as those mallsai which you see so often. The publication of an annual "Best Bonsai in North America" would go a long way towards that.

5. And finally (in this rambling post) I don't think there are any inherent blocks to this, the bonsai mainstream in the US is quite young when compared to other places. The main cultural roadblock is that there is no history of bonsai culture in the US. Before Naka, was there really a bonsai scene other than small pockets of Japanese immigrants? Bonsai requires time, for the issues in this thread we are talking about time on a generational scale. That is Asia's main advantage on the rest of the world in this.

and FINALLY (really! ) I'd like to hear Walter Pall's take on this thread.

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Best Regards,

Leslie St. John
Barbados
West Indies


Remember: Opinions are like bellybuttons, everyone's got one

Will_Heath

John, with all due respect, I think you are missing the point. It's not about which is better or ignoring any others. Japanese artist tend mostly to create bonsai that are distinctly "Japanese" and the same with Chinese and as we talked about, it looks as though Korea is falling into there own. None of these are "better" than the others, just different, just reflecting the culture they came from as with any other art form.

American artists can not help what culture they came from and sooner or later this will be reflected in the bonsai they create, giving it a distinct feel. This is not bad, in fact I feel it is better than creating Japanese bonsai that are made in America. I am not saying there is anything wrong with Japanese, Chinese, Korean, European, Italian, etc bonsai but as you know, they each have a certain fell distinct to there culture, I am just asking what is wrong with Americans being the same?


Saint,

All good points.

Will