U.S. vs. Overseas Bonsai...

jeremy_norbury

I really don't think there is a significant difference between the "art" practiced in the US vs that in Europe or elsewhere. I do believe that, maybe for historical reasons, that Americans, undeservedly, have a bit of a chip on their shoulder about this.

I cite the following differences:
- Japanese have been at it since there were trees
- Europeans have been gardening since there were gardens; there's a whole load of us (730Million) and we have hundreds of bonsai clubs.
- Chinese/Taiwanese/Koreans recognise a high return business when they see one

I'm reminded of a story I once heard :

An American is visiting Scotland on a golfing holiday and is playing at St. Andrews, the home of golf. Approaching the eighteenth hole, the American spots the greenkeeper sitting in a small hut having a "wee dram".
"Hi there! Beautiful course you have here, how'd ya get the greens so good?"
"Ooohh, it's very simple"
"Simple?"
"Aye. Every day we water the grass, mow the green and then roll it."
"But eh, but that's exactly we do back home in The States".
"Aye. But we've done every day for 400 years."

Jerry Norbury
Amsterdam

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jloeschner

If you think this is heated, just look back at some of the "art vs. horticulture/hobby" threads.This group of fine people are VERY passionate about their trees. Of course, that is a good thing...most of the time. I have only been here a few months, but I have learned a HUGE amount since my first visit. I enjoy a good debate, but sometimes I just sit back and watch the fire...

Regards,
John

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TreeBay

I think Andy Rutledge was talking about another thread on another forum where the discussion was advocating the display of bonsai on lawn chairs. Personally, I think that the display of bonsai on lawn chairs could be artistically brilliant. I would be happy to see it. And I am not being the least bit facetious. There is absolutely no reason why bonsai (sorry, finely crafted dwarfish shrublike blobs of blue paint) need to be displayed in expensive pots on little tables with weeds and rice paper cuneiforms.

That's snobbery.

Andy brought up the point of the Kokufu-ten albums. Those photos are slapped together for the albums. The trees often don't even go with the tables. The are often unrelated to the actual displays. The World Bonsai Contest is rolling around again, but they didn't ask for photos of bonsai displays. They asked for bonsai. If you submit a photo with a stand in it, they chop it out and crop to the tree.

The tree.


Personally I think appreciating those displays is equally important to creating them, perhaps more so. If a tree falls in the forest and there's no one there to listen, who cares?

Regards,

Matt

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PastorJeff

Matt,

I have to say that I agree with you. But I need to ask another question off of that one...Will American Bonsai ever match up to that of Japanese (overseas) Bonsai? It seems to me that much of what Bonsai is lies in the mind of the person defining Bonsai (does that make any sense?)

I know there are rules to Bonsai (as I have been taught) like nothing growing down, no branches on the inside of a trunk curve, so many branches in a windswept and forest display. But it seems to me that the rules are meant to contain the art rather than define it. When you set the rules to contain it...you get snobbery.

Am I off here? I don't want to get flamed, I am honestly trying to understand what it is going to take to be a respectable Bonsai "artist".

Maybe there just isn't an answer to this...

Jeffrey

Will_Heath

Think of Mighty Joe Young vs. Godzilla.

I was hoping that someone would say that American bonsai got its start from Japanese bonsai but the two are completely different monsters now. There is no comparison.

Take any art for example. Is Abstract Expressionism any less "art" than Cubism? Is Gothic Painting any less than Fauvism? Is a pianist any less of a musician than a flutist? Is a practitioner of Tang Soo Do any less of a martial artist than a student of Gung Fu?

We are slowly on our way to becoming American Bonsaist, with styles and techniques of our own, made by us, for our native species, for our climates.

Min brought up Korean bonsai in another thread and asked if they had a style, Carl noticed that in fact they did, not quite Chinese, yet not quite Japanese either. They have found there own level, there own place, they have Korean bonsai…not Japanese or Chinese bonsai made in Korea.

Is Korean bonsai better than Japanese, Chinese, European, or American bonsai? Again, they are all different monsters, with there own positives and there is no comparison.

So if we Americans finally get it and realize that we need to create American bonsai and not Japanese bonsai made in America then we will be a force worth reckoning with.

But wait, if we can’t compare, then how can we be judged against others? Well then I’m afraid it comes down to simple art. Imagine that.


Just some thoughts…


Will Heath

jloeschner

Will, I believe that you have hit the nail on the head. It seems that people want to compare their bonsai to the Japanese standard, even if the style is not Japanese. It took me a little bit to figure out that doing so was like comparing apples and oranges. They are both fruit...but that is about as far as it goes. When I finally figured it out, I began to see the positives of the different styles as positives of their respective styles, and not as negatives of a Japanese bonsai.

Are Americans "as good" as the rest of the world? Sure...some of us are. Most of us are just beginning to learn the art, and have a ways to go, but there are some really great American bonsai artists out there. There are even some really good ones on this forum...just look at the galleries.

Regards,
John

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PastorJeff

Will,

Good post! But then let me ask you a question. What are we to use as standards as Americans or {{Insert Any Nationality}}? Don't we need something in order to understand what we are shooting for?

If not, then anything that anyone puts on this website needs to be considered perfect as is (I don't buy into that...just an illustration). Without standards, rules or guidelines all you have is chaos (I can't remember the philosopher that stated that), hence our post-modernistic society that we have now.

By trying to say that any standard that we create is good bonsai, aren't we taking away from what Bonsai is supposed to be in the first place (I don't have an answer to this...). Isn't that why the Japanese came up with all the "standards" so that the purity of the art form was maintained?

Thanks for any answers...

Jeffrey

Carl_Bergstrom

Hi Jeffrey,



Yes, exactly, but...



These aren't Japanese standards, by and large - these are basic principles of art and perception. Andy Rutledge has taken a big step in the direction of explaining this in his superb online book. I'm in the process of writing an article going into further depth on exactly this subject. The more one learns about art and composition, the less arbitrary and the less foreign the Japanese principes of bonsai design appear to be.

Best wishes,
Carl

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bonsaial1

Originally posted by Will Heath:



Bonsai is not about what country it is created in, nor is it about defining a look based on its country of origin. It is about comparing bonsai to bonsai. Pure and simple. Artistic bonsai has no country, no national origin, no religion, nor ethnic affiliation. Just art. It is or it isn't, Country or no country...

Bonsai-al

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