U.S. vs. Overseas Bonsai...

RonMartin(deceased)

that would be nice and I am all for it

Vance Wood

I don't think a heated debate is a problem as long as it does not end in name calling. It has taken me a long time to learn, understanding that the use of four letter words for me has always been an art form, that when things get to this point the validity or falecy of a position gets lost in the clamour.

Will_Heath

In that case then I truly am a ~$@&*!~ artist!

Will

Aaron_K

What makes a bonsai tree better than another? This is a case of semantics. Beauty, as they say, is all in the eye of the beholder. Admittedly, some of the finest specimen tree's are to be found in Japan and China, where the art form orignated. As bonsai was practised about 1000 years before it was even heard of in the west, its only common sense that some of the most awe inspiring bonsai will be found in this part of the world.

That said, I personally think that every bonsai, regardless of age, has its own individual beauty and character, especially those that are "self created". Bonsai I think is a very personal thing, almost like a religion or way of life or even a frame of mind. By practising bonsai, you are the artist, the tree is your canvas. Over many years, you continue to paint your picture but, no matter how many years you paint for, the picture will never be complete.

Bonsai, for some, is like striving for perfection. Something that we cannot achieve in our own lives. For others, its more a form of relaxation or meditation. Its also a chance for us to appreciate and marvel at the magical wonder of mother nature. Looking at an acorn in your hand, whilst standing under a mighty oak, is kind of humbling.

Bonsai is many things to many people, but to all, it should be about opening your mind, and appreciating everything, from trees, wildlife, nature, the Earth - even life itself. To disregard someone elses approach to bonsai, is to disregard your own.

mike_p

HEAR, HEAR!
Aaron, you have shed some light! Good job.

Mike

__________________
Bonsai is not a hobby.
Bonsai is a way of life.
MP@BBB Studio

There is no way to happiness. Happiness is the way
Gautama Buddha

Will_Heath

Aaron,

First you claim that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and then claim that the finest bonsai are in Japan and China. What makes them the finest? Semantics? I think not. They are the finest simply because they are reconized as such by many and not by one single beholder.

Use that same ruler you used to claim that Japanese and Chinese bonsai are the finest to measure all bonsai and you will find that some fall short and then by default prove that the single beholder, although a noble thought, does not a quality bonsai make.

By your logic if I believed with my eye that the finest specimens are from the US, does my sole opinion make it true?

The art VS hobby debate was waged here before and by "Reductio ad absurdum" won. A painter may paint for a hobby or as a way to relax, but he is trying to do the best he can do with the knowledge and talent that he has. With more practice he will become better as with all things and in time may create artistic paintings. I do not believe that he would fight against creating art or reject it simply because of the medium he uses any more than we should just because we use plants instead of canvas.

Will


Will

HB Smith

These are beautiful words and I hope that we all enjoy this aspect of bonsai. But if that were all there were to bonsai we would not have anything to say on this forum. We would either be in our backyard enjoying our bonsai or out hiking in nature, or maybe even looking at the gallery section of this forum for beauty from around the world. This is the part of bonsai that is the personal experience or that is shared with those close to us.

The forum is also for the exchange of ideas. If everybody always agreed with me I would NEVER make a difference in anybody's life. We all try to shed light. But sometimes this new light shows things that need to be clarified from more than one point of view. Then things can get heated up. Let's not all sit in the shadows for fear of the heat. But also let's not try to put out the light just because it may show our own imperfections.

__________________
Sincerely,
Howard

www.BonsaiSmiths.net

Aaron_K

No Will, I stated, that as the Far East have a millenium headstart on bonsai, they will have some of the most fantastic trees. Hundreds of years of training and perfecting ramification on a tree, will of course make it look more aesthetically pleasing - Hence why many regard them as the finest examples in the world. BUT, given that there is a 1000 year deficit, my point is how can you "measure" by using "That same ruler"??

I look at pictures of trees from Japan and Singapore and I do indeed marvel at their age and beauty, but I equally look upon my own bonsai with the same enthusiasm and appreciation.

I also stated that Bonsai is many things to many people, and to my mind, there should be no hard and fast rule aside from basic horticultural techniques. Whether you practise bonsai, for relaxation or fun, it is individual preference for doing so. I wasnt trying to raise a debate on the Art Vs Hobby issue, merely emphasize that it is different for each individual.

Beauty is all in the eye of the beholder, what appeals to some, may not appeal to others, with different styles and species. Beauty is down to individual taste, not collective opinion.

Whatever your reason for practising the art of bonsai, and whatever your personal taste, what unites us all is our love of the subject.

Vance Wood

Aaron: Fundamentally I agree with you, all of us row a different boat, but the flood waters float all boats if they don't sink them.

I feel I have to make a bit of correction to your statement about trees being trained for a thousand years. The oldest known living trained bonsai has been in cultivation for about four-hundred-fifty years. It is a very large five needle Pine. It is not impossible that there may be some trees approaching the milanium age but they probably have not been in training as a bonsai for much more than two-hundred years and that's a stretch. I know of a couple of White Cedar bonsai that have had their rings examined under an electron microscope that exceed a thousand years. But---as bonsai, they have only existed for less than ten years. These ring samples were obtained from similar trees growing in the same location that had died. So here, the dates though similar, cannot be precisely confirmed without damaging living trees.

However I would love to be proved wrong. The bonsai culture that we have been exposed to from Japan did not really start to become what it is now till about one-hundred years ago, the Mieje period. That being said, in my research I would be very surprised if bonsai did not enter Japan as early as the Seventy-Century (600AD). It is also agreed that most of the blossoming of bonsai in Japan probably got its biggest boost from the Buddhist migration somethime in the Thriteenty-Century.

I hope this is not too far off subject or looked at as a jab at you. Believe me it was not. I have been working on a book for a long time and this is one subject I have researched to a degree.

I feel I have to correct myself here, but I don't want to delet the majority of this post. YOU DID NOT SAY (my falut I should have read more carefully) that there were trees in cultivation for a thousand years, I read the post worng. However; there are people that do think there are bonsai that have been trained for that long.