Tree Collectors ;o)

RonMartin(deceased)

Was just setting here thinking about the many comments made about people that buy trees that have been styled by others. Tree collectors if you will.
Some say that they miss out on the true meaning of bonsai. The "creation" so to speak.
This is a thought that I have never subscribed to. I say get the joy of bonsai in what ever way you want. To heck with what others think.
Funny thing is that there are a lot more collectors out there than one might think. They are a bit secretive about it and maybe some aren't really aware that they are "collectors"
As some of you might know I do travel a lot, meet many people that are into bonsai. Almost always these people will show me their bonsai collections.
A lot of the time I hear about how they styled this tree or that one in a workshop with ( supply your own favorite artists name here) I get a lot of he did this and he did that. Not a lot of I did this and that.
Hate to say it but at a lot of workshops the artist pushes the student aside and styles the tree. Not all of them mind you but enough to make note of.
Now if the student watches the artist style his/her tree. Then takes it home so that they can tell everyone that this or that tree was styled in a workshop "with" ( again supply your one artist name here) are they collectors or practitioners. If they have several of these trees do they have a major collection of trees that are styled by others.
Are you a closet collector.

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susieq

I wish I had access to more workshops here....... I don't make a big fuss about collecting. I just poke along with my own stock, usually. But a few months ago, I brought home a large Chinese elm from my teacher's place. A lady he knew had won it in a raffle at a bonsai convention. It was gorgeous. Unfortunately, she proceeded to try and kill it. When it was just about dead, she took it to teacher and asked him to try to save it. He worked with it for weeks and got it back in shape, gave it back to her and she nearly killed it again. Brought it back to teacher and he saved it. This went on several more times until he finally told her she had to sell it to him or he wasn't going to work on it any more. She did. By this time it was really rough and one whole side of the tree had died off. Teacher made a scar up the side of the tree and worked to save it one more time. I had always loved the tree and was upset everytime it went back to the person who obviously couldn't care for it. When Teacher told me he had bought it, I begged him to sell it to me and he did. It is a piece of collected material, I believe. It is over 36 inches tall and a formal upright. It was trunk chopped a long time ago and has wonderful taper. I probably won't attempt any restyle, it is nice the way it is. Now it is more of a treasure to me because Teacher died last March. I am also in the process of buying a juniper from his widow, that was a favorite of mine. It isn't a big deal to me whether I styled something, or it came from somewhere else, as long as I really love the tree.

Ralph

I prefer workshops that give you guidance more than the teacher working on the tree. That said, when I go to a workshop that is with someone I haven't been to already, I dont really know what to expect, so I could get a tree styled by the artist. I don't learn as much this way, but I appreciate the tree no less. I am less likely to take a future workshop with this artist. On the other hand, I realize that a workshop usually has a very limited scope of time, so if I am lucky, I will get a lot of instruction, a little here is how to get started or do such and such, and then a lot of my own hands on. If I learn just a little something, I will go to future workshops with that artist if I get the chance.

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Carl_Bergstrom

Make that "a major collection of trees that were rough-styled in one single session with a total of thirty minutes or less of total effort by someone who is multitasking and dealing with a half-dozen other students."

Yeah, then I'd agree.

-Carl

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BrianBay9

I've only been to one workshop - run by Walter Pall. Good one to start with, I think. First he critiqued each tree, then demonstrated a couple of styling techniques, then turned us loose while he walked around trying to be helpful. I think the critique and discussion of each person's tree was the most helpful part. No one got their tree "styled by the master", and I think I prefer it that way. I haven't had time to get to other workshops (too much travel), but I just assumed most were run the same way.

Brian

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bnsaijim

I think bonsai have more of a "pedigree". It is difficult to be a pure "collector" unless one hires the original artist to move the tree along or maintain the finished bonsai.

Looking at people who had taken workshops with this guy or that and seeing many of those trees never really progress- "Master X styled it like this so this is the way it stays... " kind of makes me think this.

If the tree ends up being a knockout 5 years later- perhaps because the artist had the foresight to provide training directions or a drawing... is it really to his credit?

Or...A hired gun comes in and decimates the workshop trees because he isn't from TX and doesn't understand our climate, our species... maybe he SHOULD get the credit...

I have a TX Ebony "ruined" by a certain carving afficiondo. Colin Lewis showed me a way to fix it. Who gets the credit?

I had two artists work on the same tree once- a buttonwood... Dennis Makashima, who did not know the species, which worked out well because he kept to his "place"- helped me analyze the tree and it's virtues and defects and Gary Marchal who further helped it along guiding major branch placement and describing a form true to the nature of the tree. BUT I made the decisions and did the work ultimately combining traditonal Japanese and American approaches. Who gets the credit?

I stopped taking workshops for this reason. I'd rather work with someone (i.e., Colin Lewis) on an ongoing basis that is more inclined to lead me to THINK to style trees in the best way rather than hum along running trees through the "Bonsai Master Mill".

So, while I may include a teacher's name to the pedigree of a certain tree my name rides along with it for better or worse.

The one exception I have is the Banting cypress - I stay true to his styling to the extent possible. It is inevitable that my mark is made on it however, the ultimate image is solely his.

Jim Stone

Cre8tive

I am not sure I fully understand what all the hoop-lah is all about pertaining to growing-vs.-buying. I personally feel it has more to do with status than anything. Sorry if that offends some but it’s just the way I feel about it.

I am not ashamed to say that I got interested in bonsai from watching Mr. Miyagi tend to his little trees. I had only a vague idea what bonsai was at the time and still can't recall what quality the movie’s props were. All I knew was that I wanted to do that some day. It was the idea of caring for those neat little trees as an old man. I honestly don't want to lose that aspect regardless of the criticism I may face.

Along the way I have learned a broader meaning of what bonsai means to me and the depth at which I am willing to submerse my self into the craft. I don’t wish for others to subscribe to my feelings on the subject nor would I try and impose them on anyone. I would like to create my own bonsai from seed just to know that I did it. I would buy trees styled by others if they were appealing to me and if I could afford them. I want to improve on my ability to care for them prior to doing so however. I simply love bonsai. I want to create a few, and own as many as I can comfortably care for while keeping my marriage and family intact. (Ron, maybe you could tell me how many that is…
)

I don’t understand why we must constantly define what bonsai and all of its aspects are when views on it varies greatly from individual to individual.

Regards,
Mark

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Attila

Just like sports fans who enjoy talking and debating about sports. We like to talk about bonsai. Thank God we don't agree on everything. That would be really boring.

Ian Hill

I think everyone has made valid points and I am still undecided on the topic.
I took one of Rons classes and enjoyed the end result because with the exception of "dangerous" bends on big branches I styled my tree. It also gave me guidlines to work with for styling more trees.
On the flip side, I had a tree given to me, and won a couple of raffles, one was from a demo by Colin Lewis, and the other a forest by Ron, although Ron did have a few of his guests come and help out with putting it together. So i guess the question still remains, How do I distribute credit where I feel it is certainly deserved? until it is restyled, after I have cared for and maintained it for a certain period of time?....etc.
Oh well, either way i agree with the idea that the fun of bonsai should come in whatever means someone goes about it.

That did alot of good ,
Ian

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