Thoughts on a quote

Jay

I offered the following quote from the Book “Bonsai Past-Present-Future” a book commemorating 40 years of Bonsai by William N. Valavanis. On page 3 in the Foreword’s second paragraph is the following:

“In, Japan, it is the routine practice of bonsai artists to search for pre-trained plants or old developed bonsai to recreate plus refine to the new artist’s design conception. Bonsai is an art form which requires years to refine, therefore, few bonsai masterpieces have been developed by a single artist.”

I offer this quote for your opinions, in particular the last sentence. I realize this is a quote of but a few lines from a full page Foreword but feel it does stand alone.

I am unsettled by this statement, which I am beginning to believe more and more. Is it giving me hope to continue down the road with my trees or giving me despair as to my work.

As many of you are aware I hold Bill in the highest regard as an Artist and as a Teacher.

Your thoughts?

Jay

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A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49...
Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing

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pootsie

Gives me both, but I tend to have mood swings anyway


I am resigned that I must enjoy this art without ever attaining its pinnacle. Good enough for humble old me. I also like to play drums, but I will never be a Hart or Olatunji (rip).

pootsie

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John Dixon

Jay,

The way I see it, although everyone says the "perceived" age of a bonsai outweighs the "actual" age of the material, it seems we never get away from requiring it to be an "old" specimen. There is some credability to the fact that bonsai is a long-term endeavor, but my opinion is thus:

I am a firm believer that when a younger tree with better styling sits beside a less well-styled but substantially older bonsai, the older (and yes, probably bigger) bonsai will get the nod MOST of the time.

Probably not very well-received by the good stylist, but it does happen all the time. I guess a lot of consideration is given for the "history" that an older bonsai brings. Sort of like how memorabilia becomes more valuable when the famous person dies.
Case in point, I know that a certain tree by John Naka increased in price by $1000 after his death. I'm not judging the seller, just indicating a recent example. I believe that this is why so many people are scowled at for having a lot of money (and admittedly, good taste) but no real artistic skill and winning awards for their "purchased" bonsai. I know that is harsh, but that is my firm and unwaivering opinion.

Elitism is alive and well in all aspects of life. I think this phenomenon supports that theory. After all, most bonsai shows do not judge the bonsaist, they judge the bonsai. I'm sure bonsai age will never be truly ignored. I'm afraid he is simply stating the way it is.

John

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John Dixon

Si vis pacem parabellum

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cbobgo

note that the quote says "bonsai masterpiece" not just bonsai. I think we can all make nice looking bonsai, given the time and material. Few of us here will ever create a "masterpiece."

I think it is probably possible attain a masterpiece level tree in one persons lifetime, but probably only with really amazing collected material.

- bob

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Emperor Fish

Jay,

I could be wrong here, and if so, forgive me for trying to read your mind, or read between the lines of what you have written. Your post comes across as though you have reached a cusp, or a fork in the road. A similar thing happened to me recently (and I know Poots too). A road to Damascus moment, when you realise that you have to work with material that is very good to begin with if you want to have a chance of it being good bonsai in a reasonable timeframe (whatever you consider that to be).

There is only one thing worse than having an elite in any endeavour - not having one. This path just leads to the acceptance of mediocrity.

I think Bill is spot on, and I believe that anyone who is serious about bonsai at whatever level comes to this realisation (depressing and then enlightening) as it is.

Regards,

Fish.

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Jay

Fish........I think you may be on to part of it for me....

Jay

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A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49...
Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing

pootsie

Yup.
I have recently embarked on a project of eliminating rather than collecting more trees (contest entry aside ).

I just gave a friend a tree I had been working on for 4 years, after seeing it would never be more than a well-bred twig. (He's just getting into bonsai, so i figgered it's a good starter.)
I have simply pitched some trees that I had worked on for 5 years.
I have given away all my serrissas (damn them to the darkest pits!) and have pitched all the midnight ficus after 2+ years of work, ditched a couple cruddy spruce after 5 years each, etc.
Anyone in Ohio want some F.retusa cuttings?

This does not even count the trees that have eliminated themselves by natural selection

pootsie

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p.s. My cat is a bonsaiTALK Master.
Columbus Bonsai Society

RonMartin(deceased)

Without being able to read the entirety of the text you mentioned I think that you might be taking Bill's comments a bit out of context.
Two words in your quote sort of pop out to me. ARTIST and MASTERPIECE. Not too many people or bonsai get to be called by those names. A lot of people call themselves artist but few are called that by the masses. The same goes with the bonsai. I think that Bill is talking about people and trees that are given those lofty names by the masses (or maybe their peers)
Can an artist be made in a lifetime. Of course. Be kind of hard to have them any other way.
Can a bonsai become a masterpiece in the artists lifetime. Yes, but this is a bit harder. Requires more skill and usually a lot more time.
If one is an artist striving for the masterpiece something has to be done with that time differential. Usually that means starting off with more mature material. Something with great potential. A pre trained bonsai definitely falls into that category. Well depending on the skill of the person that pre trained the darn thing.;o)
Since it is a bit hard to collect mature stock in Japan the next best thing (or maybe equal to) is buying old bonsai. Just a different form of "collecting" good stock.
The quality of the material one starts with is in most cases related to the size of the old wallet.
But the skill and talent required have little to do with the wallet. If you have the skill and talent can you create a masterpiece. Can't see why not.
If you have a smaller wallet you just have to work a bit harder at it. More humble starting material that's all. The big thing is what you do with the material at hand. How much talent you have. Talent is the big equalizer.
Just remember, all artists were at one time just students and all bonsai were once just seeds.
Just follow the right road and both you and your trees will arrive at the same destination. Wherever that might be is mostly up to you

Treebeard

Happened to me recently too. I let go of a dozen or more things this summer, some to my brother in law to get him going again after a lapse in interest, the rest went in the bin. A few more yet may go in the bin, I may re-naturalise some more and Bro-in-law might just get his hands on a few more.

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Jay, welcome back! I've been wondering where you got to.

Regards,

Chris.

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