Thoughts On Number Of Trees??

Jay

Today is going to be a beautiful day. The temperature should get up into the 60s (F). I will try and finish the repotting that need to be done. I have already gone out and checked to see what more needs to be done and, there is a lot. This brings up the question of ‘What size is right for a collection’ and I still go back and forth on this one. I have heard ideas from different individuals that make sense, but I still have not figured out my own rule. Thanks to a fellow Artist in the area (Craig) I have been able to collect several medium to large trees to add to the collection. But when is it too much? When do you stop or at least share some of your trees with others?

From one Artist I have been told to keep your ‘good’ trees to what you can picture in your mind. More than this and you have too much.

From another Artist comes the thought that if you see a tree you are thinking of adding to your collection make sure it will be one of your six best. If not think twice before adding it.

Now comes the thought of seedlings and collected stock that you need to let grow... rest … etc. How many?

OK there probably is no correct answer to these questions. Any answer will of course be individual to each of us. But I know at least for me, I have to watch myself. I could with very little problem acquire way to many trees.

What are your thoughts?

__________________
A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49...
Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing

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David Chauvin

Jay,

Of course there is no one answer to this question. One of the determining factors would have to be why the person gets into bonsai. Is it growing? Styling? Refining? A grower can probably handle lot of trees. The person that loves taking raw stock or pre-bonsai through the initial styling steps probably has to continually obtain and let go of trees. Someone that's into refinement will have slow turnover as this is the most labor intensive phase. I think each person has to figure out what their personal attraction is to bonsai and go from there.

David

__________________
"With the death of the Shamen, artists are the last interpreters of the Divine." Joseph Campbell

FredL

Well, it seems to me that part of the problem is what counts as a tree? I think that if you include new seedlings, it's easy to have 50 or 60 that grow from a pocketful of seeds that you pick up from a neighbor's tree, but they require less care than a couple of 200 year old master-class pines. Of course, in 3 or 4 yearss, when you're beginning to do some work with them, it's a different story. So, once again, as in all things Bonsai, it all depends.....

I tend to think it's a good idea to collect too many trees initially and reduce down to what you can care for properly over time. The more trees you have, at leat initially, the more quickly you are accumulating experience and the more able you are to experiment and see how different things you try work out without adverse reults being a disaster for your overall collection. I would imagine that, over time, as you increasingly accumulate experience and improve your technique there will be a tendency to reduce your collection and increasingly focus on quality.

It clearly also depends on your circumstances. It's one thing for a retired person who is really devoted to bonsai to keep 200 trees in a spacious bakyard and another for someone who works 10 hours a day and has a tiny backyard to their urban duplex.

But I stand by my bias for cultivating too many rather than too few. It expands your horizons and helps to build experience.

As a ballpark for somebody new to bonsai trying to get a basic concept of what's reasonable, I'm going to say 20 for the harried software engineer in the duplex, with hardly time or space to turn around; 200 for the retiree devoted to bonsai, with, perhaps 10-30% of each of these being mature, finished Bonsai. My guess is that many will think these numbers high. I have already explained my bias.

Regards, Fred

RonMartin(deceased)

Hard question to answer. That is if there is an answer.
Best I can say is for the hobbyist it all depends. Each tree will require care. Trimming and all that will take up some time. If you are in bonsai for enjoyment then you don't want it to become work. When it seems like you are going to work on your trees you have too many. If you are going to the back yard to enjoy your bonsai then you have enough.
Me I have to divide my time. I own bonsai shop. There I need a lot of trees. The more I have the more I can sell. But that is work.
My personal collection is different. There I keep 20 trees. I go to my back yard to enjoy them. More than 20 is work.
I can go to my back yard to piddle with my trees. Each is a good friend. Each has its own story. I know every branch and most of the leaves on them ;o)
If I want to add a tree to this collection I must take one out. This very seldom happens.
I actually spend more money and time collecting books on the subject than I do trees. I spend a lot of time reading. I also spend a lot of time in bonsai classes and workshops. I find that the knowledge gained from this stops me not only from killing trees but also stops a lot of that experimentation that so many talk about. No need to reinvent that wheel so to speak.
I am luckier than most I guess. I do know a lot of the bonsai artist and growers out there. I can either pick up the phone or just drop an e mail to get an answer to a question. I have grown and styled more trees with these guys than most. Well at least over a beer while making drawings on bar napkins any way. ;o)
I don't need a lot of trees. For me quality is always better than quantity.
Boy that is a lot of words I just chucked out and still did not give an answer ;o(

bnsaijim

I vehemently disagree with the person trying to inflict the 6 tree limit on me (i.e., my teacher ), at least he has redefined it to a six tree "core" collection. Too many variables - 6 pines ar edifferent than 6 elms than 6 tropicals.

I think there's value in some kind of limit if you are seeking to have exceptional bonsai. This takes attention to detail and exacting techinque and maintenance.

I think the "accumulation phase" is a natural stage enthusiasts go through. You finish work on your one tree and are stuck...so you get another. Each addition is easy to justify.

But I think trying to say you are "learning something" is a risky affair.

I think a beginner having too many, i.e., 200 is like trying to carry on a conversation with a crowd. When you focus in on one or too people to hear what they have to say, the rest get bored and leave...

And the thought comes to mind, given the power to choose, with no requirement for politeness, should you necessarily listen to everyone? Or listen equally?

Jim
TX

PS I spent the weekend "hostage in my own house" for "Beach Party Weekend" tending to my own accumulation sins...

FredL

Jay, you have been blessed by hearing from a couple of guys that know about 10 times as much as I do about Bonsai. Individually, that is.

HOWEVER, this being a Democracy I am entitled to my own opinion, however poorly informed it is and I stick by my first reply.

Speaking as someone going through the much maligned early stages of Bonsai practice, my experience is that I am, indeed, learning alot about bonsai, especially the horticultural aspects of it, by having lots of trees. Now, I do think that it may be different if you are in close contact with folks that know a whole lot about Bonsai culture, especially in the specific climate that you're living in. This means that you can undergo what amounts to a Bonsai "apprenticeship" and have your experience guided as well as WATCH somebody perform many of the critical operations. Where I am, there's nobody available for 3 or 4 hours and I must rely upon myself.

What I am finding is that there is simply no substitute for experience. Things that were completely counter-intuitive to me when I started I now take for granted and substantial amounts of advice that I received from others or from books turned out to be wrong.

That last being pretty much inevitable, I guess, since so much of what I heard conflicted with other advice or "information".

I also am finding that there is a big difference between understanding what somebody has told me or I've read and having my hands "understand it".

I have a world of respect for Jim and and Ron. Both of them have helped me alot on this forum. Guess it just goes to show even the smartest guys can be wrong from time to time! (Just kidding guys!!!).

Fred

RonMartin(deceased)

So Mr. Jim
Counting the trees that you have stashed at my house how many do you actually have and out of that many how many of those do you really care about ;o)

Jay

Ron, Jim, Fred.... I agree with all of you. Now either I am too wishy washy or......

I think there are several ways to deal with most issues. Humans are by nature different. I have my thoughts and likes and dislikes. But... no sense re-inventing the wheel. I like to hear the opinions of others... especially the ones I respect. My respect does not limit itself to the Master.. so called Masters and even novices.

Its nice to be able to listen to others and their thoughts. Some I use, some I do not. Some I may adopt down the road as I change.

Thank you for your thoughts.... I await the thoughts of others!

It is still a beautiful day... got to get back outside!~!

J

__________________
A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49...
Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing

bnsaijim

Fred,

Don't see where I'm wrong, read closer and you'll see I'm riding the fence. I said I don't agree with a prescribed number, especially if you're getting something out of it and have the time to develop them into decent bonsai.

My bottom line, however, is that there is a limit based on numerous factors.

Goals
Species
Time
Room
Economics
Climate

Since this is a Democracy let's vote how many trees Fred gets to have ;^)...

I stand correct!

Jay,

Even the Master's differ. Colin has a hard time caring for a handful of trees. Walter has something like 400...


Jim