Sympathy for the Captain...

bnsaijim

I have to sympathize with Jack. The main reason I don't post here much, or now to IBC anymore, is because of this very thing. And I am one in a long line, many artists more accomplished than myself that have gotten fed up.

I do not present myself as being guiltless- I'm known to be a jerk on occasion- but as my gift to the bonsai world, I've resolved to shut up unless I have time-proven advice rather than anecdotal-based information...

Jack offered up a tool. He never stated it was the end all- he very clearely stated the origin of the information and the intent. What's there should get you through 80% of the scenarios.

In the scientific world, one often sees papers based on "literature reviews"- the intent is to compile and summarize current knowledge on a given topic. They are not intended to be new and innovative works. Noone gets on the compiler for the inadequacy of the referenced works...

Jack also gave excellent advice regarding the quince- solve the problem before you worry about ultimate goals for the material. While I would have offered two additional items for discussion on his recommendation, not by saying he's wrong, and by universally applicable basic horticultural advice addressing what I suspect to be the problem.

Forums seem to become a competition to get your two cents in- whether you have expertise or not. The thread all too often ends on ripping each others advice apart rather than responding to the original questions. I cringe every time I read "I don't know nuthin about nuthin but..."

Hey, I like to be right too, I've just decided to not improve my odds through more posts...

Opinions are fine and all, but too often the right to render one becomes the justification, rather than sound artistic or horticultural sense.

Ultimately, the best advice will come from the experienced bonsai grower right down the road that works with the exact same material but that is not always an option. Part of the process of learning bonsai is working out your own personal solutions to problems.

There are exceptions to everything, but consider what most designers, engineers, doctors, etc. do - they approach issues with an eye toward 80-90% of the population, not the outliers. That indicates that if you stick to the basics of care and design you are probably going to do okay.

I can dig trees in June and get them to survive, regardless of where I live; I've done bonsai in 4 or 5 different zones. Does that give me the right to spout the exception as gospel or even as a recommendation to someone that doesn't know better? Or argue with someone that says they should only do it in late winter?

The same can be said of design. While it may please you to leave that branch inside the curve, and it is your right, and maybe Kimura did do it on one of his trees, 80% of the time it really doesn't work; it looks like crap because it's presence can't be justified. Everyone around you will breathe a great sigh of relief when you come to your senses 5 hours, days, or years later when you come to the realization on your own and cut it off.

If I have a tree that is such an exception should I tell someone it's okay to do whatever they want or should I teach them good basic proper design?

To keep the atmosphere fairly conducive to doing bonsai rather than a "nitrogen stream dispersion competition" like the other place...

People would do well to adopt the Japanese approach- you know, those folks that do all those trees in pots? - Never directly criticize- complement the piece and then frame/support your comments/issues in the context of the basic principles or, as a last resort your own "defective" opinion. Also, they dislike the word "No", you are more likely to get "Yes, but..." or "That would be extremely difficult to do..." Keep other's feelings in mind...

Just a rant...

Flame on....

__________________
Jim Stone
Seki Bonsai Studio
sekibonsai.com
Santa Fe, TX

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Jose_Alberto

WOW, two thumbs up!!!

__________________
Jose Alberto Franco
Guatemala
Central America
http://www.doschivos.com

Jay

Jim,

Good Day! you are concerned for the captain! Fine. I agree that no one should insult another or mistreat another. On the possibility that my 'flaming' was one of the above, I sent a message to the Capt directly. This is a forum of ideas and knowledge! Some of us have far more ideas than knowledge, this member for sure. I make it a point to try and show myself as the novice I am.

Tell me Jim, if I see something I believe to be incorrect should I let it go? Or, should I question it? If the original was correct it will stand the test, if it is incorrect it will be corrected and everyone will get the benefit of ALL views. AND if it is only a matter of choice, then everone will see all sides of the issue. If it was done with a mean spirit it is incorrect!

There are numerous individuals with far less knowledge than I that 'stop by' to ask a quick question or get a quick answer.... they should be able to see other possibilites than the one posted by the first one to see the question.

I remember you from previous posts. You are helpful and informative. You also are far more capable than many of us. You may be able to do things 'outside' the proper method. But, for many of us it is best to try and do it the 'approved' way in the 'approved timeframe' before we stray from what works. I said the zone location is important to collection times, I believe it is. I do not think a tree can be collected at the same time regardless if it is in TX or MISS or CALIF or NY or Quebec.... perhaps I am incorrect!

Forgive my rant..... on your rant!

__________________
A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49...
Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing

Carl_Bergstrom

I'm afraid I have to side wholeheartedly with Jay on this one.

For several reasons.

1) First of all, there is some damned bad advice posted to this forum. Some of it by me. Some by others. The forum is all but useless if that bad advice goes uncorrected.

2) Posters need to grow up and realize that if someone disagrees with you, they are not flaming you.

In my post in the Beginner's page : shall I plant it thread, I prefaced my disagreement with the statement "I must be feeling argumentive today. I keep posting all these disagreements with other folks' advice. Sorry in advance!...Cantankerously yours, Old Mister"

Elsewhere Jack has referred to that post as a flame! This seems rather remarkably thin-skinned, given the efforts I took to not apologize for merely disagreeing.

3) Bonsai masters such as John Naka publish tables of when to do things - and include disclaimers about the limitations of those tables. This is all that Jay was asking Jack to do. If Naka is not too good for disclaimers, who is?

4) In the classified : seedling exchange program thread, Jack described Jay and I as "armchair bonsaists who didn't offer any better advice." That bit of name-calling is the first flaming I've seen on this forum. Who deserves whose sympathy?

Sincerely,
Old Mister

__________________
In love with trees

Jose_Alberto

OH!!!!!!! hold on... I didn't read a thing about what Jack wrote... sorry, but I need to say that I agree both with Jim and Old Mr. Crow in different aspects.... because, Jim said that sometimes we start arguing without reaching to an advise to the initial poster, that's a huge mistake...

And, well, in the post of Flynhammer, Old Mr. Crow and I argued about the style, and there (at least, I think so) we had a really constructive discussion, I've learned a lot about formal upright, eventhough I still keep my like for breaking the rules a little there... but I'm sure that Flynhammer got different points of view, and also could watch some virtuals... (some ugly, some not that ugly ) so, THE FORUM IS REALLY USEFUL FOR ALL OF US... I would know nothing about bonsai without y'all... Now I know a little... (I think so) well, then, my advise here should be:

LET'S LOOK OUT WHAT WE WRITE THINKING ABOUT THE OTHER POSTERS, LET'S TRY TO FOCUS ON SOLVING DOUBTS AND HAVE "CONSTRUCTIVE" DISCUSSIONS, AND REMEMBER THIS FORUM WAS MADE FOR US TO LEARN AND SHARE ISTEAD OF SHOWING OFF WHAT WE KNOW...

sometimes we pinch new members by our attitude, let's encourage everybody in this noble and beautiful art, instead of discourage them... ok?

REGARDS HEHEHE

__________________
Jose Alberto Franco
Guatemala
Central America
http://www.doschivos.com

Carl_Bergstrom

I agree, Jose - I liked that discussion about Flynhamer's tree, because we both got to express different viewpoints, you made me realize that certain styles do look nice with exposed trunks, and no one (I assume) took offence. Even more importantly than all of this, I would like to think that some useful viewpoints and virtuals were put out for the original poster to consider, and that you and I may have had some small part to play in helping the original poster improve what is already a gorgeous tree.

Your closing words say it perfectly, so I'll repeat them if I may:

let's encourage everybody in this noble and beautiful art, instead of discourage them... ok?

OK!

-Old Mister

__________________
In love with trees

Jose_Alberto

OH, ALSO REMEMBER, FOR SOME OF US EXPRESSING WHAT WE THINK IN ENGLISH IS NO THAT SIMPLE... (since, we've never lived in a English speaking country)

Oh, and Mr. Crow, maybe I didn't get mad or angry with the discussion out there, but if Jack did, why not offering an appology and leave it there?

I recognize you know tons... but, sometimes being humble worth more than the knowledge... come on!!!! let's not fight...

__________________
Jose Alberto Franco
Guatemala
Central America
http://www.doschivos.com

Jose_Alberto

wow, my last post came late... so, you assumed right, I can't get mad while learning, if I would... Then I would stay in the ignorance...

__________________
Jose Alberto Franco
Guatemala
Central America
http://www.doschivos.com

Jay

Jose- You need not apologize for your English. You and the other non English as a first language members do a better than fine job. I only wish I could speak another language 1/4 as well as you can.

OMC- Thank you for your thoughts, you have corrected me when you thought I had errored (Renee's group plantings of a week or so ago), and you agree on other matters. YOU VOICE YOUR OPINION. Discussion can not occur without allowing differing opinion. I look to learning and discussing items of interest.

Jim- I regret that you feel the need to avoid this forum and the IBC. You have much knowledge that I and others desperately need. If you have the time please join in!

Jack- I have written you privately. I do not feel I did anything incorrect or harmful to you. That said, it matters what you heard. If it came to you as a insult I openly regret you takeing it that way. It was nothing more than an attempt at discourse. My view...and words...do not have any more worth then the information they carry. If they are in error I am wrong!

Everyone- For my part, this is over! I am signing off for the weekend... need to get away from this 'puter. Look forward to other discussions after the weekend. Jay

__________________
A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49...
Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing