Since we're being blogged anyway

bwaynef

"Face it, those of us who participate in online discussion are generally relying on the others involved to help us learn." -- Andy Rutledge

Personally, I hated to see Andy leave the online community as he did. He brought many ideas and points of view that I simply had never considered. I'll admit to being more of a consumer of his thoughts than anyone with whom he may have engaged or learned.

Andy knows that people appreciate his ideas. Theres no other explanation for his "contributions" of late. Thats not to be confused with people agreeing with his ideas. Its painfully obvious that a lot of people did not. I'm not certain what caused his hasty departure from the online community, but have reasoned these disagreements may have played some part.

In reading a recent article of Mr. Rutledge, I came across the nugget I quoted above. From this I see that online discussion is viewed by Andy as a learning tool. Its been my experience that such discussion proves itself invaluable. What is unsettling is his insistence that he is participating, even if this insistence is faint. What we have with Andy is not a discussion. It is immobile, one-sided, and stagnant.

Ironically, I see that much of the fodder for his monologues or soliloquies, I cannot determine which, are derived straight from the fora from which he so hastily retreated. I hold the utmost respect for Andy and his ideas and ideals, but this withdrawal only to comment from afar appears cowardly. Cowardice may be a bit strong for what I'm trying to convey, but I see no benefit in this method of delivery that is not easily outweighed by engaging discussion and the learning/teaching possibilities that follow. (****EDIT There is an edit to this particular piece of this post a few posts down. ***END EDIT) If artistry is to be explored and furthered, then discussion of the methods and ideas will come more readily in one of the active communities than in the convoluted methodology wherewith we forum commoners discuss, then find that we've been discussed, thereupon continuing our discussion, only now with the lengthy but static input from Andy. Our questions go unanswered. Our retorts for his go irresolute.

Andy, contribute or create. If you don't want to be a part of our discussions then be creative. Use the artistry you've been blessed with (and you've worked to cultivate) to teach us something more suited to the media in which you choose to communicate. Your Worlds within Worlds 1 & 2 are exemplary for your choice of what to communicate for you chosen media. Insisting you're active in the online community simply for airing your thoughts is childish. There is still room for contributions to the online community from you, and the wealth of information you could teach. The method you've chosen only leads to a false sense of belonging on your part. I believe its the general consensus that we welcome you back as a contributer, but as it stands, overseer nor commentator are positions that benefit the community.

Wayne F.

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© 2004 - present bwaynef

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RonMartin(deceased)

Sure is a lot less arguments since Andy left the forum. Guess I should say I miss them but I don't.
He has quite a few admirers on the net but sorry I am not one of them. Not my cup of tea.

pootsie

"this withdrawal only to comment from afar appears cowardly"

Come on! Everybody who posts on the web anywhere is commenting from afar. So he posts an entire mouse-click away? That's somehow different from posting here? Not at all.

It's no more cowardly to post his comments where he does, than it is to call someone a coward "from afar" by posting here. We still aren't face-to-face.

I happen to be a big fan of Andy's input (though I admit to having some style issues). Just because he doesn't put it here doesn't mean he is any more of a coward than anyone you could call an internet bully.

So let's talk about bonsai.

pootsie

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p.s. My cat is a bonsaiTALK Master.
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mike_p

There are some old shop worn sayings that may be appropriate to this thread. They are:
"Talk is cheap"
"The proof of the pudding is in the eating"
"A picture is worth a thousand words"

Mike

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Nature is perfect.
Man's attempts to improve nature,
Are imperfect.
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There is no way to happiness. Happiness is the way
Gautama Buddha

bwaynef

I was not satisfied with the wording of that myself, and thought I'd edited out any reference to cowardice. Apparently I clicked the wrong button. Even with it still in I admitted to not liking the cowardice part of my wording. I considered editing the original post, but will leave it as it stands and hope that readers see this post.

I can see that this is a discussion that I should let die. Before I do that, let me stress that I don't mean any ill will towards him. Only wished he'd contribute a little differently, but maybe I'm the only one who wishes that.

Wayne F.

ps. This is what I meant to post:

I hold the utmost respect for Andy and his ideas and ideals, but I see no benefit in this method of delivery that is not easily outweighed by engaging discussion and the learning/teaching possibilities that follow.

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© 2004 - present bwaynef

Will_Heath

Granted a discussion usually involves two or more people exchanging ideas and Andy has put himself beyond the wall of debate. He can freely speak his mind without fear of rebuttal, debate, or corrections. Matt could also do this here, simply make a statement and then lock the thread so no one could comment on it.

A simple way of avoiding having to defend your statements and ideas is to simply not allow debate.

On the other hand, he is often right on with his thoughts and he does have the material to back up his ideas, (unlike most people who voice their personal opinions on line). I see him as someone who wishes to keep the art of bonsai pure and I greatly respect most of what he stands for, just not the way he goes about it.

Cowardly? Not a chance.

Will Heath

Attila

Andy, be a man!
Let's go mouse-click to mouse-click.> You can have an extra mouse if you want.

RonMartin(deceased)

Funny isn't it. Seems like everyone has said that Andy left the forum. So why are they putting messages here to him as if he never left. If he isn't here how can he read them ;o)
Has he left or not.

Will_Heath

LOL, Ron. We all know that he still reads this forum, he refers to it occassionally on his page. He hasn't left, he just quit posting.