It Should Be Obvious But.......

Jay

I was over on the IBC reading the Interactive Gallery. There was a thread on a Juniper Squamata (Should this branch go?) that was getting a lot of attention. Walter Pall made the statement in italics below. The more I read it the more I understand! The two main thoughts I get from this statement are: 1- Just because the tree came with the development as is, does not mean it needs to continue in this direction or that what it comes with is necessary for its final look. 2- when developing my own trees leave what will do the tree good in the future, even if they are not part of the final 'tree'.

I cannot believe what an eye opener this statement is! Walter, Thank You!!! You are not only a Great Artist, but a Great Teacher as well!

Quote of Walter Pall:
When developing future specimen bonsai by people who know what they are doing, quite often as many low branches are kept as possible. They are meant to thicken the trunk and to still improve the nebari. They are meant to be sacrifice branches, which are cut off during the final design. When such trees are exported from Asia and someone buys them for a lot of money often they are taken as 'specimen' trees. They are not, they are just well developed material. Since they 'must be a piece of art coming from a famous nursery and costing a lot of money' people don't dare to take anything off.
Sacrifice branches normally should be sacrificed.
Just some thoughts.


Just my humble opinion
Jay

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A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49...
Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing

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Walter_Pall

Jay,

thank you for the flowers.
The problem with such statements under a tree that somebody proudly shows is that it might hurt the owner's feelings. This because the person probably has worked for years on 'enhancing' the look the tree came in and never has realized that it was not the look that was the original aim anyway.

But I may also be wrong and in the end it is just a matter of taste. Anyway, I think it should be said if the occasion arises.

As I have remareked at some other place it is a problem for folks not coming from an English culture to say what they think. In Tyrol, where I come from, a man who does not say what he thinks is considered a liar and a non-worthy person. One has to say the 'truth' even if it probably hurts people. This is accepted behavior.
In the English world one is expected to be nice to people before everything else. A person who says what others want to hear is a 'good' person. I am absolutely not a good person. Sorry.
Cultural clash!

best regards
Walter Pall

FredL

Walter, I must be missing something here.

I haven't seen you critiquing trees at shows or interacting with people first hand, but it's really hard for me to envision people having their feelings hurt by your evaluation of their trees or suggestions for improvements. It is so obvious that you wish people well and are genuinely interested in helping them with their trees that I am simply unable to imagine people responding to you in ways that don't return your good will. You have been consistently kind in replying to my sometimes rather off-the-wall comments and I have greatly appreciated your seemingly boundless supply of good-will.

A phrase that I like alot is "(S)He can disagree without being disagreeable". Goodness, gracious, how I wish that I had that quality to a greater degree! I suppose it is true that there are people out there that it is seemingly impossible to be honest with without creating an emotional firestorm no matter how tactful you are, but don't you think they are pretty much in the minority?

Fred

Jay

Walter, thank you for speaking up. I think it is true, different cultures are more or less open than others. The internet has brought all of us much closer much quicker than ever before. I like and appreciate your honesty and upfront approach. I try and be honest, but must admit that I too try to sugar coat a negative response. I will be honest but perhaps not as much as if I was in front of the other person. The more direct and honest the answer the more the person asking can learn!

Forgive me, but, there are far too many 'master' on the IBC who get upset with others pointing out something to them. I do not think ANYONE is above learning. Sometimes the less knowledgeable can teach the advance something. We all need to keep our eyes and ears open... but mostly keep our minds open!

I have read several of your articles in 'International Bonsai' and have read whatever I can find of yours on the net... you are good. It upsets me that somepeople feel that they have been at Bonsai for x years, therefore they know. Time is not always a good judge of ability....

As I've said before, someday I will find myself in the same place as you. The experience will be very enjoyable.....and educational.

__________________
A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49...
Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing

bonsaial1

Nicely said Jay, I only wish that everyone could understand that a little tough love can be taken as educational and not a kick in the teeth. I have been plenty outspoken before, but it is always in the spirit of the betterment of bonsai, not just to knock someone down.
To the truth, Salute. Keppler

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A tree a day...thats all we ask.

Rene_Voortwist

Walter, Jay, Fred, Al,

I agree with you that it's far better to tell the truth. However, I feel that there are always several ways to tell it. For instance, I've seen many people post pictures of twigs in various newsgroups. There are basically two ways of telling the person that this will never become a decent tree if left in a small pot :
1) Hey it's crap ! Put it in the ground and come back in five years. Bye !
2) The trunk of the the tree you posted is really to thin to make an image of an ancient tree. If left in a bonsai pot the development of the trunk will take many years. If you would plant it in the ground or a large growing box this process would speed up considerably.
Both remarks are honest, but which one will be more encouriging to the person who posted the tree ? I've seen both kinds of answers..
Maybe this is indeed my cultural background, but if I was the poster I'd be far more happy with the second answer.

regards, René

jemmick

Touche' Rene',
I agree with all these comments. I would like to add that if I remember correctly there is somwhat of a disclaimer some where on the boards that if you post a tree the poster should be aware that it will be critiqued and if that is not wished then the poster should state so but to be ready in the event that would happen anyway. I have only been posting here a short time but have not noticed any coarseness in the advise.
I post to get another view and advise as to another approach and recieve that advise in the spirit that it was given. Sometimes I do notice that the written word is at times coarser than the spoken word and it doesn't seem to come off in the same light as it was intended.
I have seen Walter Pall critique trees and have attended workshops by him and he is honest but to me he has never been offensive. One only has to look at his trees and know this is a man who know what he is doing.
Those of us who post trees should realize that there are two different ways to recieve the advise of others and two different ways to give advise when we post comments. This is longer than I intended but is pretty much IMHO.
Kind Regards,
Jonathan

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Jonathan

FredL

Rene, thank you for saying what I intended to say, but better!

Fred

Walter_Pall

I do agree that one has to expect citique if one posts a tree on this forum or on IBC. I think this is a great opportunity for everyone. One does not necessarily have to take for serious what everybody else is writing. But often enough it can help.

I have posted some trees which had been winning European awards, some trees which would cost more than a nice car and had to accept critique. Some were mutilated with virtuals. A lot of the advice was not so good in my eyes. Some was worthwhile. It was all worthwhile to see how the general public would see these trees.
It also was an eye opener to see how people who obviously have never heard my name would criticise my trees. This is very necessary because I don't get too much critique anymore. This creates complacency which is always wrong.

Anyway, I often write to my postings that virtuals and critique are welcome. And gulp a bit afterwards :-) when it really comes.

Walter Pall