A Question of Attitude

Bonsai Barry

A challening thread. Life is always enriched when excellence is pursued. However I need to make two observations:

1) I'm new to Bonsai. I don't yet have the resources to make a large commitment. To the observer I may look like a fence-sitter. However, as a "hobbist" I joined this chat group as a means of edcuation and inspiration. I'm rarely disappointed. This means my ability to give is not as great as my need to recieve. Hopefully, that will change in the future.

2) We all travel through seasons of life. For some of us, we might be in a season where bonsai needs to take a back seat to other commitments (toward family, for example). I still take delight in working with my trees even though I can't work with them 24/7/ . I'm sure as my children grow and need me less, I will devote more time to my pursit of bonsai. I wonder Al, if you are retired?

But Bonai Al's comments encourage to make the most of the time that I do spend with the trees.

Best,
Barry

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BrianBay9

I'm not sure this discussion is framed accurately. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems the major objection from Al and others is the posting of poor trees by owners who are not willing to learn from a thoughtful critique. The same objection could be made of "artists" who project a similar attitude. Whether some feel they are pursuing a backyard hobby instead of an art form is irrelevant if they approach the forum with the intent to learn.

Brian

Oysterowl83

BonsaiAl,

I commend your comments. As an added footnote: I also beleive that with anything you should try to find the finest training and advice that you can find and/or afford, wether its costing money or not. With that being said, what you put into something is what you will get out of something, and the finest training will lead to nothing without PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE!!..This advice is coming from a classical pianist here..Training methods, foundations, etc. are all very important things that build your skills and knowledge for the next step in whatever hobbie that may be.

Here's to learning something new each and every day!
Anthony*

rockm

"Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems the major objection from Al and others is the posting of poor trees by owners who are not willing to learn from a thoughtful critique"

I don't think that's what this is about. It runs a little deeper than posting poor trees.

Will_Heath

Brianbay9,

You as many others are missing the point here, it is not the quality of trees that we are talking about but the recognition of what the finished product should be and admitting the same. The stick in a pot that gets so ardently defended here is not and should not be the end goal, herein lays the difference.

Artists = all work should be seen, looked at, developed, critiqued, and judged with the end result being a true artistic bonsai. Any advice or critiques that do not take this end result into mind will not be tolerated. They share the belief that all bonsaists work toward the common goal of improving their bonsai and bringing there work to an artistic level.

Disclaimer: They often are perceived as harsh by those who were looking for pats on the back or attaboys. And yes, they are elitist, so what?

Backyarders = It's okay just to have a twig in a pot and show it. We are immune to critique because we claim hobbyist not artist. In fact it is alright to give advice to other members and critique their bonsai even though we can not or have not yet reached the level we are critiquing. We're okay, you're okay and only say good, nice things about our crafts.

Disclaimer: these beliefs will instantly change and become artist beliefs the minute they actually create something artistic. Until then they will use affordability, availability, lack of material, tools, clubs, stock as excuses and if that fails then they will claim superior knowledge.


Will

(tongue in cheek)

mkonig

Have we all missed the point?

If I know Al, I don't think that he has posted this as a popularity contest, but to raise a thought in our heads and evaluate our "attitude".

Here is mine:

I have to admit that my attitude has changed a lot over the last few years.

I am taking bonsai a lot more serious now than when I started.
I do not call all my starter material bonsai (even if it is a plant in a pot).
I am seriously considering the future of some of my not so promising material.
I will make sure to include my proposed plan for any tree that I post to the forum.
I will learn how to match a pot to a tree, in readiness for when I consider that any of my trees are ready to be put in to their final pot. (not for a few years yet.)
I have learned that critique of my trees by others does in no way deminish my achievement so far.
I have learned that not everyone who critiques my trees is qualified to do so.
I have no raw and obvious artistc talent , but I am trying to understand the principles behind "good" bonsai design.

I am sure there is a lot more, but the boss is looking over my shoulder so I better leave it here.

@Al- I knew you were going to come up with a good one!

MIke

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bonsaikc

Al, not to shift the emphasis of the discussion, but I learned a few things from Boon preparing for his show. The mineral deposits on your pots are called patina, and should stay on your pots. Mineral oil will remove all of that. Removing the patina from antique pots is like refinishing antique furniture. It makes it look new and thereby destroys its value. Boon uses walnut oil, which is easily applied. Simply put some nut meats in the end of an athletic sock, tie it just behind, and smash it with a hammer. The oil will seep through, allowing the sock to be used as an applicator. After rubbing the pot, wipe dry with a clean part of the sock to remove the excess oil, as you should not leave fingerprints when moving the tree.

Aside from that, I am with you on the post.
Chris

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BrianBay9

Well then, Rockm, Will, let me investigate this further. I'm not trying to be argumentative, just to understand. If the objection is not about posting poor trees and then not accepting a thoughtful critique, then why do you care if someone considers themselves a backyard hobbiest or a bonsai artist?

It seems to me the only place this becomes an issue is in the public domain - either posted here, or at a show. In either case, with either group of bonsai people, "going public" invites a critique. If the critique is constructive, and received that way, then again we have no problem. If either hobbiest or artist chooses to remain private, again, no problem. Live and let live. Each will progress according to his/her own dedication with no harm to the other. It still seems to me that the conflict arises when either hobbiests or artists invite public critique, and then don't receive it well. That attitude is not unique to back yard bonsai hobbiests.

Brian

RonMartin(deceased)

Would be nice if everyone was allowed to seek the level of bonsai that they want to achieve. Problem is that level and the level they want to critique or give advise from is usually on a different plain.
There is a bit of a difference between backyard bonsai and show quality bonsai.
One can find show quality bonsai in some backyards but rarely in the yard of a "backyard" bonsaiest.
It is a matter of attitude like Al said. Go where you want to be but then be satisfied with that.