In Pursuit Of A New "school"

bnsaijim

I have to disagree with the Padre (Craig) in that I don't think there is such a thing as a "Western" or US style. BTW: nice to see you over here! I'd love to see one, but there is too much divisiveness. I agree, WALTER has his own style, but I'm not too sure that it represents anything nationalistic.

Here's my line of thought- both Chinese and Japanese "style" is recognizable or "pigeon-holeable". This is despite the fact that there are even significant regional differences in Chinese bonsai.

In most cases you see one or the other as a major influence...

If not, I don't think "c. None of the Above" means it is a Western Style...

I'm afraid that someone looking at a tree that might be considered a candidate for the "Western Style" (or perhaps a "School" or "movement" concept would be better?!?) would think that's bad attempt at Japanese or Chinese bonsai...

I don't believe that a style or school is a matter of one technique, tool, species, imagery style. It's more of an essence.

I think we've contributed many things to the art- new styles, inspirations, material, but, still we apply them over one of the existing models. I've met Vaughan Banting (ala "flat top cypress"). I also have met many of his students and worked under or with them. The whole crew works extensively within what would be considered a Japanese framework.

If I compared it to painting- the Impressionists developed a certain way of looking at things and painting. They tended to paint specific subject matter- typically inspiring outside natural scenes or social activities of their day. They used a certain palette- typically lighter pastel colors. They attempted to capture scintillating light effects with patterns of brushstrokes. To properly view an Impressionist painting one would have to stand back for best effect...

If I paint an Amtrack train, or a Hockey fight it can still be an Impressionistic painting even though it is not traditional subject matter of the school. I've not created a new school of painting.

I believe certain artists have gone beyond the two traditional schools- Banting, Pall, Lenz, C. Lewis, Adams, Robinson, spring immediately to mind... creating their own unique approaches to bonsai styling, and contributing to the art as a whole.

But I would contend that there is not a third school or style yet...

Any other thoughts, perhaps someone has a better idea as to what might constitute a unique school or style?

Jim
TX

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Carl_Bergstrom

If I paint an Amtrack train, or a Hockey fight it can still be an Impressionistic painting even though it is not traditional subject matter of the school. I've not created a new school of painting.

One of the most insightful things posted to this forum in a while!

Nonetheless, I couldn't resist...

Attached Images

hockeyfight.jpg (57.7 KB, 247 views)

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In love with trees

mfp1028

thats a nice painting Old Mister Crow.
hockey is the only true sport, soccer comes close.
I should have figured out that someone with as much impeccible taste and humor as yourself would enjoy hockey.
Though they appear to be fighting; have you beaten anyone up lately?
that could be your motto : Old but still kickin @ss

disclaimers -
-- i didn't call old mr. crow old, he did it himself
-- ass as in donkey (sorry)

mike

mfp1028

In all seriousness, the japanese and chinese have (or maybe had before the advent of modern technology and the globalization (read death) of the worlds cultures) their own style in terms of culture, it would seem to follow in their bonsai as they create the "rules" as what they perceive to be aesthetically pleasing. Did the rules create the style or did the style create the rules? I would venture to say a little of both.
About not creating the art, the same let us say for cars, I am not going to say that america invented the internal combustion engine driven car cause i am not sure if we did but i am almost positive that the chinese or japanese didn't, though they have added ALOT to this particular undertaking . I personally think (and god knows how much trouble that has gotten me into) that until quite recently asian cars were from the school of small, highly engineered, and practical while american made were big and loud (and the antonyms of the words describing asian cars above) and British cars were " could you pass the grey poupon " (Sorry had to throw that in). They were seperate schools of thought in terms of design yet i wouldn't have said asian cars didn't have their own style cause the americans invented the car, or started the practice of bonsai.
Does that make any sense? Of course it doesn't. What did you expect?
Let me try a different angle. Bonsaijim you wrote:


Even if it was not Chinese or Japanese and it was no style, that is still a style, so you either have a style with no name (sounds fine to me, bad for judges, critics, politicians, and any sort of discussion), Western style (clique, just focus on the art - or is it horticulture?), or bonsai with an american influence, or japanese influence, or chinese feel (essence-beautiful word Bonsaijim)

Alright one more, lets say maybe you're talking about great leaders and with my limited knowledge of great leaders and brain full of hollywood fiction (though i take this movie for the truth) you watch Braveheart and I say he was a great leader(clique), but i wouldn't say he was a great Scottish (Irish?) leader though i am sure many people would. What i mean is regardless of whether he was Scottish or Polish or Irish or Italian he was a great leader. That is the way i try to observe the trees I see that others style. I enjoy the look of the tree. could i put some more i's in this paragraph.
I have finally taken the time to write one of those horrendously long threads that i abhor.
Thank you Bonsaitalk

mike

bnsaijim

OMC: PErfecT! I LOVE IT!

Mike,

I too had thought of a car analogy... My thought being you can often suspect the source of the design. Advertisers will promote a ""European look and feel"... == "STYLE"

I would NOT call a "lack of style" a style, or again I think "school"or "movement" possibly clearer than the term reserved for upright, cascade... I don't intend any "value" judgement by it- simply, the work is not classifiable to Japanese/Chinese/"Pall-ian"... I think a basic requirement of a school/style is that you can give nonconflicting descriptors to it. Simplistically,

i.e., Japanese = tight, regulated, precise, potentially abstract, defined foliage masses reflecting an ïdeal tree, harmonizing understated pottery...

Chinese = less rigid growth patterns, emphasis on a repeated focal point, short movement-filled branches...

On ïndividual style: I think Walter has his own style. My wife tells me that I have my own style. I think Mike Page is another... I, however, know that some of my quirks are a result of specific individuals, notably Colin Lewis, Gary Marchal, and Steve Deluane who has just started hanging out here. If enough of us in a region begin to use common design traits we might get our regional school or style.

Now that my brain is more relaxed by fermented malt and hops... I wonder if perhaps there may not be some potential seeds for regional styles/schools, i.e., "Gulf Coast" - not sure about this one... or "Tropical School" African styling is perhaps the most advanced, from a codified perspective- they've at least published information on several defined styles unique to that continent... Perhaps a European Älps" school.

Might a school be recognizable, but not attributable to any given "region" quite so much?!?

Jim
TX

bonsaial1

How about Kevin Willson, You can pick out a Kev tree blinfolded.

bnsaijim

Yes, definitely!

I would say he's very influenced by Kimura, also, similar to Noelanders, Joe Harris, perhaps Mike Page, Bruce Baker might belong here...

Think that's a school? Obviously not regional since we've got folks from all over...

Jim

ripsgreentree

Jim:
Here is my question. How does the California Juniper figure into the equation being as it has had so much effect on the japanese bonsai culture and the way it has changed the amount of shari and jin that is used in there juniper designs.

One more thought, although I am influnced by eastern techniques I am taught by western artests.

If the Chinese invented paper and paint and the Japanese invented wood working and picture frames and you painted the painting. Whos work is the finished painting.

I am really not going toward any specific point. These are just ideas that I had whal reading your thread.

Penjing...Bonsai...Patio Trees

I have to go to work now as my head hurts from this much thinking on a saterday morning.

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ripsgreentree

It requires an open hand to give and to recieve.

Harold B.

Hi all,

I just wanted to humbly ask a question.......do threads like this ever get resolved?

All I know is that I may never get my plants displayed and nationally recognized, I really don't mind. I love the peace and knowledge that I receive from working on these ongoing works of art and the fact that I have an immeasurable abundance of personal creativity.

I have one juniper that is an informal upright that has no taper......yet I also have another juniper that is a triple cascade (I may layer the other two to make individual plants out of them,or I may just leave them on for my personal pleasure), and other plants that I am working on that probably many of you and some Japanese and/or Chinese masters would shake their head at, BUT there is just something that these plants tend to do for my sanity and peace of mind. Which I can almost guarantee for certain that you all agree. (except when lopping off the wrong branch or something to that effect).

I feel that if you want to compete and truly be recognized in those certain circles, then you will have to conform to that style. Other than that?....I say.....have OMC, bonsaial1, treenut, Matt and whoever else style. Go for it give it your best because when it's sitting their in that pot and alive, it is your creation.

Whether Chinese, Japanese, European, American, or whatever I just thank God that I have the mind to create, copy, and or deviate whenever and however I choose.

Wow did I mix in God with Bonsai.....YIKES that might spur on a new thread.......LOL.....You all have a good day!

Aloha,
Harold