Pinus Question

mushashi

Hi,

As a newbie here, I am concerned about my Japanese black and red pine and have a de-candling question. Obviously, I am somewhat of a newbie here and a little unclear as to what is considered the candle. Is that the entire stalk right down to the older wood, including the newly forming needles on the tip area, or just the area with needles that are emerging.

Right now things are starting to expand on these guys and the "candles" some of them are about 3/4 one maybe 1", the rest are very small. Someone told me yoiu need to prune them back now, but it seems premature. On the other hand these trees have some nice traing to them and I don't want to mess that up, or kill a branch by nipping back too far. However, if you wait too long, won't the branch get too long?

The info on this is conflicting in many cases and confusing to a less experienced person.


Any thoughts on this and to help stop my paranoia here before I do the wrong thing?

Thanks....

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Vance Wood

There are several schools of thought on this issue covered from many sides even in the books. I think it is important to understand the terminology, so we will start there.

There is much confusion over the terms buds, candles and shoots. Buds are exactly what you would expect them to be, the little round or egg shaped things at the ends of the branches that will eventually swell and expand. When this happens they will extend out and look very much like spears of asparagus, these are candles. Once the candles stop lengthening the needles will emerge and start to open. At this point they are called shoots. However be warned some of the articles translated from the Japanese publications are translated by non bonsai people and the distinction between these three stages of growth become clouded.

The old school taught when I started back in the 50's, was that you break off one half to two-thirds of the new growth while the needles have not emerged from the candles. You break off half in the weaker areas and two-thirds in the more vigorous areas.

Over the last several years the thinking on this issue has changed or evolved. Most growers now do not use the candle pinching as described above but will remove shoots later in the season. This must be done with scissors and is not possible with the fingers though it still could be called pinching. The idea here is to allow the buds to develop into shoots producing a lot of built up energy and then remove the shoots some time in July. This will produce a good deal of back budding even on old wood if the tree is vigorous. What to do with all of the buds is another issue to deal with later.

This is done by cutting all the way back to the begining of this season's new growth and just slightly above the point where the new growth started and last season's growth stoped. It is important that you remove all of the needles that face up and down leaving all of the side needles. You can also remove most of the old needles on more developed trees but this is a technique for the more advanced trees and not suggested for trees that still need back budding, in my opinion, there are those who would disagree with this as well. Hopefully this will get you going.

vance hanna

As a person just getting into P.Thunbergii I'd actually use great caution on just what I do with this (Sounds like mature) bonsai. They are not difficult to grow, only require some simple understanding of water technique.

Firstly, they can dry out quickly in your area. If dry and you've left it more than a day you've got a dead bonsai. On the other hand by soaking it all the time...and not letting it dry out naturally you'll also kill it. Pine like very well drained soil, so they like being wet!!! and then DRY!! (by the way, FULL SUN!!)

I'd go up to Hayward and take a few lessons from Johny Uchida at Groveway bonsai Nursrery. He's a friend and very well respected teacher/grower in your area.

Although I concure with most of what my friend Woody is saying. The General Bay area of CA is, by now quite advanced in candle production and I'd wait until the candels have fully elongated and beginning to open. Down south in LA they're about 1~2"!

When you see the candels becoming needles on stems....
At this point you can remove all the weak buds (usually below and on lower branches) and in another week, take all the new growth (candels that now probably have opened) off completely. If you don't cut them flush, and leave a bit of new needle, the tree may not respond in creating the new flush of buds for your smaller needles (which is why you're doing all this in the frist place!!)

While all this is going on you really need to focus on the water. Too much and it will push long needles even though you've got the timing correct. Too little and you can rot the roots.

Actually on your time frame sometime in may/june your buds will mature to needles. Then after they've been removed it will be another 4~5 weeks for new buds to form into new needles (the growth you keep for the season) and then in another 2~3 weeks (Mid Aug) you'll want to take off via plucking all of last year as needles on the stems. (Why?) This allows light and air inand promotes adventieous buds to form. If you allow a pine to just 'grow' it will constantly drop the 2nd/3rd years needles and push out to the edges of the canopy.

I hope this does not construe a thought that I"m being difficult or consternative, Just that over zealous attempts can kill your nice bonsai.

Best to you,
enjoy your bonsai

__________________
vance hanna
fine bonsai take time

mushashi

Thanks for all the great replies!

Well, I am still taking this all in and a bit confused but I will reread the posts. It just seemed to me if you cut off the entire shoot back to last years growth, it would stop growth of the branch much like a deciduous tree. The cut prevents further growth of that branch except for back budding and off to the sides.

Bottom line, it SEEMS like I have a bit of time before I have to make any decision what to do, yes?


This tree is not extremely old but does have years behind it plus it was grown for a while in the ground, initially. I just don't want to screw it up. I do have another young black pine in a one gallon container mostly for experimenting, but it too could be a nice specimen some day, but has alot of catching up to do to be near the one I am referring to....

Thanks again....

Vance Wood

Musashi wrote: Well, I am still taking this all in and a bit confused but I will reread the posts. It just seemed to me if you cut off the entire shoot back to last years growth, it would stop growth of the branch much like a deciduous tree. The cut prevents further growth of that branch except for back budding and off to the sides.

That's the point! You want a pine to develop inward not outward. Pines have an annoying habit of extending growth outward and losing growth in near the trunk. This is OK in the wild, it's the way they grow but for bonsai purposes this is not what you are looking for. Incidentally it will not stop growth from extending, one of the side shoots will take over and continue to grow outward. Bonsai culture for pines is the art of dealing with all of the little things these trees do.,

mushashi

Okay, things are starting to sink into the somewhat thick skull. As I am sure you know, there are times when you might want a branch to extend more. I guess deciding what and when is the nature of the art!


As I said I just don't want to jump to conclusions and cut too soon or in the right place. Also, if we are leaving the growth till may/june then pinching is really done by cutting and not pinching with fingers which would be done using the older school of thought of de-candling earlier. Does that seem logical?

Thanks again. In any event I will drag my feet till may/june as you all have suggested.....

Ralph

Bonsaitalk needs a definitive pine care article (hint! hint!)

__________________
Emerging from winter slumber
Bonsai trees burst buds anew
Spring is upon us!


-Paul S.

mushashi

Preferably with really good pictures! hint hint!

tuckerg

when i first started bonsai,i read every book i could get my hands on-thats when the problems started arising.one book said this,another book said that,and i was at a loss .it wasnt till i joined a club when i seen the methods at a practical level,i realized what the books meant.musashi join a good club,or at least,get to your nearest nursery,take the tree with you and ASK!.People at clubs and bonsai nurserys love to see people come and ask question-before you know it,it will be you who will be doing the answering.