Pinus nigra vs. Pinus Thunberg...

bwaynef

The same Vance W that I imagine you referenced in your post above has often cited that JBP techniques (or at least timing) will kill mugo, another 2-needle.

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darrellw

Personally, I suspect it is the other way around. The techniques published for JPB have been used for centuries with them, and the techniques have been tuned to that species. A different tuning of those techniques may need to be applied to other species, even ones that are fairly similar in other aspects.

Brent

The correct name, at least as of about two years ago is Pinus thunbergii. I got this from an Taxonomist who knew the whole story. I'm too lazy to look it up, so I will give you the abridged version. Originally the plant was named Pinus thunbergii by Thunberg. The name P. thunbergiana was also in use during this period, but was judged to be a later name. The first correct name takes precedence. A couple decades ago another taxonomist thought he had discovered an error in the naming P. thunbergii, thus P. thunbergiana became the correct name. This is why you see this name still today. The last edition of Hortus III used this name (correctly at the time) as well as many older books such as Kraussman. Hortus was last edited in 1973, very old for taxonomy. Chances are it will never be updated since Cornell U has pretty much abandoned it. Several years ago, more study revealed that there was no error with the original name P. thunbergii, so the name reverted back to this, and P. thunbergiana is no longer the preferred name. Modern texts such as the RHS Index of Garden Plants uses the now correct name, P. thunbergii.

Refinements to the species, don't result in different characteristics for the species as a whole. When a significant refinement is made, either by chance or intentional breeding, the result is a "cultivar", such as Pinus thunbergii 'Banshoho'. The "Pinus thunbergii" should be italicized, " 'Banshoho' " is not. Also note the correct capitalization for the genus and species, and single quotes for the cultivar name. This is the correct form for botanical naming.

For a simple primer on taxonomy, see this article:

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com/taxonomy.htm

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com
see our blog at http://www.BonsaiNurseryman.typepad.com

ethanopia

Cool details on the naming, thanks for clarifying Brent.

I'm sorry about my complete bass-akwards butchering of the Taxonomy earlier. That is exactly why I'm more of a lurker and less of contributor.

bwaynef

Can anyone verify that Pinus nigra have but one flush of growth per year, where you can force P. t. to flush twice (or more) thru the year?

<source = some old MABA article on archived on the net somewhere>

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darrellw

This is probably the article that you are thinking of:

http://www.wwnet.net/~scott13/Articles/Hawley1.html

Which says:

"Among the two and three needle pines, there is a fairly wide variation in the response to needle reduction and pruning techniques. With some, such as Pinus thunbergiana (Japanese Black Pine) Pinus rigida (Pitch pine), and Pinus virginiana (Scrub pine), marked needle reduction and multiple generations of stimulated new growth can occur in a single season in response to pruning and pinching. In contrast, others, such as Pinus ponderosa, Pinus nigra (Austrian Black pine) and pinus leucodermis (Bosnian pine) simply stop their growth until next season in response to pinching."

I only just got a Pinus nigra, so I can't comment personally on how they respond.

ripsgreentree

Bwaynef: You will find that if your pines are healthy all of the proven techniques will be succesful. I live in central California, winters have little sunshine some freezing and very little snow. Summers are hot and dry with very little humidity. I was always told that trying to grow any Black or White pine in this environment was an exercize in futility, can't be done, dont even try it is a waste of time. Many of the Bonsai enthusiasts follow this advice and have no pines in there collections in this aeria. I have been known to be stubborn so to keep black and white pine in my collection I have developed a totally inorganic soil mix that retains both moisture and oxygen. The result is that in the winter when there is no sunshine I do not get root rot, and in the summer when it is over 100 degrees I can water less and again do not have the worries of root rot. A good fertalizing program and some attention to pests that are problematic to pines and I now have trees healthy enough to except all of the techniques needed to create a containerized Bonsai. I would like to note that standard nursery container soil mixes is a slow death for Bonsai. My two cents is make sure that your pines are in the peak of health and vigor and the rest of your efforts will be succesful.
Glenn Van Winkle

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ripsgreentree

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bwaynef

Good to see you posting again...rip.
Do you have both JBP and ABP? Do they react similarly to the "proven techniques?"

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bwaynef

I'm sure most are tired of seeing this thread, I apologize for boring you if you are.

I found this page but its in german. The page I linked to is google's tranlation of it. It seems to compare and contrast growing ABP's and JBP's but its a bit difficult to translate google's english into real english. Anyone interested might can glean a nugget or two from this page however.

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