Pinus nigra vs. Pinus Thunberg...

bwaynef

First quick question to all horticulturists: What is the correct Latin name for <edit for clarity, sorry TreeBay..Japanese>black pine? What is a P. thunbergii and what is a P. thunbergiana? A quick search shows many prestigious university forestry programs differ in their choice of nomenclature.

Real question: could someone compare and contrast (welcome to english class again) Austrian black and Japanese black pines? What differs in their care. How does each react differently?

In doing a nursery crawl of 2 big-box stores and a nursery I'd never known of, I spent a good deal of time looking at trees Saturday...with the off-chance hope of joining the BT contest. I found some very interesting 2-3' tall Pinus nigra. The trunks are 1+" and lots of low branching. Theres a good bit of taper and movement from what I can see. $5 gone and hopes of learning about pines, I have a few questions. Well, I've already asked them really, but I had to finish that last sentence.

<off-topic>I did find a juniper with a healthy base but I don't think I'll have time to work it by the deadline so I'll have to wait again. Talking to one of the help got the price down to <$25. Thanks to the contest organizers for getting me out and helping me find a great nursery (who then pointed me to 2 others.)</off-topic>

The question at hand: differences and similarities between Austrian and Japanese black pine?

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TreeBay

"Black Pine" is a common name so it doesn't translate directly as Austrian Black Pine or Japanese Black Pine might

I am sure for a couple hundred bucks you can get a copy of Hortus that is up to date but online I see this for Japanese Black Pine

Japanese Black Pine
Scientific Name: Pinus thunbergiana Franco
Synonym: Pinus thunbergii, Pinus massoniana
Family: Pinaceae Recommended Temperature Zone:
USDA: 6-10

Regards,

Matt

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bwaynef

To clarify, my question of ..giana and ...gii has nothing to do with the Austrians i bought this weekend. I'd noticed ...giana and ...gii used to describe the Japanese Black Pine and wondered why the discrepancy or what I was misunderstanding.

A similar question to P. parvifolia (incorrect) and P.parviflora (correct).

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TreeBay

It was the title of your post (Pinus nigra vs. Pinus Thunberg...) that brought in the Austrian element.

Nevertheless, names change - and so do Austrians!

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bonsaikc

Matt...you didn't! I may have to give you negative rep points...

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bwaynef

I think that pics been shown to be a hoax...

Anyone know of differences or similarities b/t P.n and P.t and their appropriate care?

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bwaynef

Just to reiterate

Real question: could someone compare and contrast (welcome to english class again) Austrian black and Japanese black pines? What differs in their care. How does each react differently?

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ethanopia

Well I'm not sure how much I'm gonna help but I have a few of each but haven't had any long enough to tell with any certainty what the differences are, but I shall try to re-iterate what others have said to me.

The first question on Thunbergii vs. Thunbergiana is really that of preference. The name comes from Carl Peter Thunberg, here is a little about the man who first documented and classified the JBP for the Western World. Carl Peter Thunberg (November 11, 1743 - August 8, 182 was a Swedish naturalist. He has been called "the father of South African botany" and the "Japanese Linnaeus".And he was the author of the book Flora Japonica, this is why we have Berberis Thunbergii, it's named for him too, a fascinating fellow.

As for what suffix to put at the end, according to Wikipedia -giana is considered obsolete although people still use it, and I'm not sure why?The botanical name in this case is derived from "Latinzing" a name, i.e. making a name that is otherwise not Latin sounding, sound like Latin so it fits in things like Densiflora, and Pendula, more descriptive latin terms.

As for how NIGRA compares with JBP for Bonsai purposes, Vance W informed me previously that Nigra is not nearly as receptive to having the roots messed with and It is also more sensitive about heavy pruning, and doesn't really like being in a container.

I would bet that since Bonsai enthusiasts have been selecting JBP for centuries with the qualities that are essential for successful Bonsai cultivation, JBP that we get for Bonsai is in fact tuned to be worked on with traditional techniques. They have been bread to be Bonsai essentially.

Nigra on the other hand has had little pedigree when it comes to selecting plants that respond well to heavy pruning, repotting and being in a container. So all I think Nigra could be worked with if you take it slow and make sure that you aren't as cavelier about how much work you do at one time...

Like I said I don't know how much help that is, but this is the approach I am using right now until I discover otherwise.

bwaynef

ethanopia,

Excellent advice! Nice insight into the history of the naming of JBP. Most species named after a person have the ii (pronounced ee-eye I'm told) suffix. I'd imagine that would be the accepted name, but thunbergiana shows up alot. Brent Walston says he goes by Steve Pilacik's 1993 Japanese Black Pine as it regards the cultivars. Brent uses "thunbergii" while Pilacik's book opens "Pinus thunbergiana is a resonous conebearing evergreen..." Oh well, consensus is overrated.

Back to what I'm really concerned with... Thank you for the advice. The advice that you "don't know how much help" it is could very likely save those two trees. I expected that they may not backbud as extensively as JBP but I planned to treat them pretty much the same expecting slower results from the P. n's. The pruning tip will be helpful too. Thanks again. That is exactly the kind of information I wanted to see. I guess I'll baby the P.n's a little more. I'm sure they can handle all the cold my clime will provide. Does anyone know how they hold up in the heat/humidity?

I've seen some really impressive Pinus nigrae (isn't that how you'd pluralize it in latin...only guessing) on IBC coming out of Europe. Karl Thier on this board has shown some as well. A few post show up recommended at the bottom of this page, "Similar Threads", but there's little follow up in those. I wonder if JBP techniques killed them?