Paying Your Dues

bonsaial1

Ahh..yes, paying your dues. One of the ugly side effects of this art we call bonsai. What is paying your dues? Well, the reason I post this is because of some remarks that were made by a colleague of mine, the Chadster.

I felt he came on strong and sometimes this requires some remarks to be said that might help him through a tough time.

When doing bonsai there are two schools of thought, private and public.
1. Private: One does bonsai in the privacy of their backyard, rarely has anyone over to see their trees, does not display them publicly, rarely post photos of them, and strongly states that they do bonsai for the pleasure of it.

2. Public: May belong to more then one club, active in all club functions and workshops, seeks out the advice of artists at demos and conventions, drives hundreds of miles to seek out the best stock, and is not afraid to spend hundreds even thousands of dollars for it. Actively displays his/her bonsai in public circles and invites the criticism to make them better. Seeks out judged venues to make sure they are doing the art correctly.

I'm sure that all of you are looking at these two definitions and trying to tell where you fit in. Maybe a combination of the two, who knows? Maybe you are just beginning to slide from private to public, but haven't taken the full plunge yet.

I'm sorry, I got to get back to my point: the point is, if you actively pursue bonsai on a private scale, then paying your dues does not have much effect. If, on the other hand you fall in the public catagory, then there is much due paying that has to go on.

There will be a period of learning that has to happen. Attending club functions with the mouth closed and the ears open. Finding out just who the artists are and who the flakes are. Seeking out the artists and asking intelligent questions and using that advice to base your future work on. What good does it do to ask for advice and then never put any of it to use? If you already know what is good for you, then pursue your hobby more privately, and not ask stupid questions that you are not going to put to any use.

Clubs function for the sole purpose of having a venue to learn bonsai in a structured way, to have classes or instructors or guest artists. These things cost money. How many times have you been asked by your club to help out in a club function? How many times have you read in the club newsletter that they need "all hands on deck" for an event that is intended to help raise money for the club to help defray the cost of the instructors?

Cliques, groups, whatever you want to call them will be in almost any group of people that meet as a social group... nature of the beast. To say that there is too much politics is wrong unless you know what that politics is. It's not politics if you are member of the clique doing all the talking. Paying your dues means standing on the sidelines 'til the information you wish to talk about has reached the level of the group you wish to infiltrate. No one wants to hear about talking someone down or things about other members that has nothing to do with doing tasteful, artistic bonsai.

People are busy. Just because someone does not drop their personal schedule to include themselves in a bonsai goal that you wish to reach does not make them a bad person, just Busy! Sometimes there are club functions that will actually help in this exact area, if one wishes to participate. Buddy systems work really well, if the student is willing to learn and accept the advice of the teacher. Many people laugh at the way Japanese do teaching, but it's that "breaking down of one's soul" that must be achieved if the student is to learn. Thinking you know everything is not conducive to good learning.

Personally, I feel that a person should belong to a club for at least two years before they can actually start to force their way into the cliques. It just takes that long to really know someone, and what they are actually capable of. Sounds snotty, but most people don't want to waste their time with someone that will only talk down everything.

So, sometimes that process that seems so snobbish is the exact process that you find so distasteful. The members are not snobs at all, just folks doing bonsai such as yourself, only years ahead and ready to give quality advice if you wish to take it. If you wish to not take it, then don't ask for it!

Bonsai-al

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no.... really!

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Mittar

Al, I started to reply to your "Pay your dues" thread when I realized that the only thing I understood out of it was something about cliques and how they aught to be exclusive or some other such nonsense that was clearly not your point. I had no idea what you were talking about. Guess I aught to read it again.

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bonsaial1

Hi Mittar, How you doing? The reason for that thread was to point out that everyone is on a different playing level. Some people are retired and have a lot of time and not much money to spend on bonsai. Some people are new to the bonsai world and have no techniques and little money to spend on bonsai. Some people have lots of money, are retired with the time and the collection shows.

Now some of the latter may show up to a meeting, and some of the former would like to get where the latter are. This requires patience, persistance, objectiveness, and a little brown noseing.

Nothing comes easy or free. Everything has a price. Sometimes that price is a monatary figure like Andy has told us about. Sometimes that price may be just giving of ones time to earn the respect of those that have what you want, which will allow them to give it up more freely.

What this has to do with is that all or most of all the flak about the contest has come from persons that didn't enter either of the contests that I have given. It's almost like crying wolf too many times. You have to play to be taken seriously.

I have much more respect for OMC or Treebeards opinion when it comes to a contest. They have entered both, each won, and are active participants in the forum with exciting and wonderful insights on bonsai. While I read everything and love the verbal sparring, There are ideas that I don't pay that much attention to since if I patterned a contest around that idea alone, I can't even be sure that person would participate. There is no track record.

We have had the gammat tossed around in the last week. Someone said thay don't think the money limit was high enough, some said they couldn't find stock that cheap, some want a forest contest, some want to restyle trees, while others say they don't have anything to restyle. How do you fit the needs of everyone on a forum as diverse as this one.

Frankly, for me anyway, I wish to see some of the skills of Thomas J., or Jim from Texas, Bonitah, Ron Martin, Fred L., Tony,Rips, Andy, Matt and Bonsainut. These are some of the people along with OMC and Treebeard that I personally respect. I want to know what I need to do to get them to enter a contest. Thats the caliber of bonsai I want to see in a contest. If it takes a contest with a 100.00 dollar limit, or no limit, or restyling contest, so be it. I'm surly not going to please everyone, so why not please the ones that have the most to offer to those less fortunate. Andy would call this class envy. I hate that term, but I used to suffer from it too. Then my kids grew up, I made more money, my cars are paid off and I can relax now and enjoy bonsai on 'my' time schedule.

A.K.

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I been kidding the last seven years.
no.... really!

Mittar

Al, thanks for responding. I hate dead silence more than a good verbal lashing I'm doing very well, btw. Busy as hell and loving every minute of it.

There's this funny thing about respect in online forums. Especially when it comes to things such as Bonsai. I am clearly a beginner and my trees would show this. No worries. But, if we were all in a club and met in person and chatted and had a beer every now and then, our impressions of each other as well as our respect for each other would be vastly different. This is simply the way people work.

Our impressions of our fellow forum posters is based mainly on their posted content(trees and text) and our respect would follow thusly. If we were to meet in person, our respect would be based on both our posted content and our personalities. In fact, I would go so far as to predict that if we all knew each other in person, our posted content would be a little different as we would personally know who was reading it and adjust it to compensate for their personalities.

Now, lets touch on another subject that you posted about. "patience, persistance, objectiveness, and a little brown noseing" How does one brownnose online? I know this was said in a faceteous way, but seriously. What's one to say? Nice tree, love the nebari? Don't you think that most skilled members here would rather have constructive criticizm on their trees than the more common "lovely, thanks for sharing"?

Now as far as the track record goes, I fully agree. In order for a forum member to have persuasive weight in contest decision making and what not, there has to be a history of participation. Otherwise you're a spectator, and don't forget your popcorn at the door. Feel free to tailor a contest towards those that you feel will participate, not towards the ones that say they will(me included, notice i didn't suggest ways to up participation).

Anyway, that's all I have to say on the matter for now.

Cheers,
Mittar

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Knees in the breeze.

bonsaial1

Mittar, the thread was started in response to a collegue of mine here in the central valley, Fresno area. He seemed a little miffed at all the politics and "iconoclastic statureing" that seems to go on in clubs. It seems that he wants it all now, and that it is somehow owed to him. That is what the paying your dues has to do with it. I remember a little guy that came around the forum about a year ago, anyone remember Kidswift. This guy came on with the personality that he was a bonsai wizard and everyone here was crap. It did not take long before the innkeeper cleaned out the little rat. When you are new to a club you have to do a little "brown nosing" to find out who's who so to speak.This has nothing to do with the forum. I have never met anyone here except Matt and Leesa and Robert. Funny thing, they were exactly as they portray themselves on the forum,( I wonder what they thought of me...hummmm ).Who you can trust and who will backstab you. It happens. There are those that wish to remain silent and just go to meetings and not really move ahead to hold positions like Pres, V. pres. and so on. This is no big deal, but to some that is the whole reason for going. I have belonged to the Fresno club since 1984. This year I was elected VP. That is how long I felt I needed to feel that I had something to pass along to the club. In that 19 years I have "toted a lot of water" to prove that I had something worthy to give to the club. To just take the office and do nothing is sort of silly. The one thing that they wanted from me was to improve the show each year. They feel that in the last 19 years I was the most improved bonsai person at setting up a display. Now thats sad. You would think that out of 55 people there would be more than that in 19 years. Go figure.

Bonsai-al

__________________
I been kidding the last seven years.
no.... really!

Mittar

Al,

Thanks for that explanation, clears up a bit. I'm all for the "shut up and listen until you know who's who" Idea. I'm also for meeting forum members in person, although I think I would be very different from how I post, or maybe not

Congratz on the VP election to your club. I'm sure you deserve it and will do well to merit it(how's that for brown nosing) But really, congratz!

Cheers
Mittar

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Knees in the breeze.

Chadster

With all do respect to Al and his opinion which he is certainly entitiled to... I think that alot of the comments you made Al totally mischaracterized what I said and what I really am all about. Now, let me say that this is what I feel like what you did... not what you actually did. I will try my best to distinguish between what I think or feel and what I actually think is fact. Unlike what I feel you did, which I feel to some degree was actually belittling me, but such is life... if I am going to make comments that people may take out of context... then fine, I need to be a little more thick skinned and keep going. The only point I was really trying to make with that whole thing regardless of how well or how poorly I actually stated what I meant must be 2 totally different things. Never at anytime did I say anything, or to be more accurate, the point I was trying to make had anything to do with "wanting it all now and thinK that is is somehow owed me" as Al basically puts it. I'll go on the record right here and now, and will be first to admitt Al, that I am a total new-comer, to the club, to bonsai, and to bonsaitalk. Do I have areas that have "room for improvement?" Most definately! All I was basically trying to say was that, to a large degree I have been noticing alot of people talking "smack" or whatever about others. As an example, there are some who adhere to John Naka's "teaching methods" as bieng the only way. So no one mischaracterizes what I said, I'll re-emphasize it again! I AM NOT PERSONALLY THINK THIS, NOR DO I AGREE WITH IT... but I have seen situations where if for whatever reason a person who adhere's to Mr. Naka's teachings as bieng the "one and only way to bonsai" type of belief (which they are certainly entitled to... and I personally love John Naka, his teachings and read and learn alot from his books) if a persons tree didn't adhere to Mr. Naka's teachings, then there tree was somehow less artistic or "not as good as" type of thing. Look, I know we are all going to have our own ideas, and that's fine. I guess I am just looking for perfect bonsai world or club... that doesn't truly doesn't exist. There will always be those who are the brunt of peoples jokes because thier bonsai isn't quite up to a level of another group of people... let's see, Al has been in bonsai for almost 20 years, and I have been in for less than 2... hhhmmmm... all I want to do is take advantage of every learning opportunity that I possibly can. Nothing is "owed" to me and certainly not "acceptance" as one of the crowd within a certain group of people, or the honor of bieng one of "us" because we say or whatever... I just thought maybe bonsai was big enough we could all get past that.... my mistake! For what it's worth, if I have material that meets the final criterea then I will enter. If, I don't... I'll watch and learn. Are Masahiko Kimura's trees any less artistic or any less of a "work of art" because maybe some of them aren't a perfect 1-to-6 ratio that Mr. Naka teaches? Certainly not! (in my opinion) So then, why are there those that make fun of, put down and belittle others who's trees don't "measure up?" All I was trying to point out was that... I think that is because of "bonsai bigotry." Again, repeating myself a 3rd time... all I was trying to say was, why can't we get to a level where we recognize that if, for example if one is of the mindset that it's Mr. Naka's way or no way.... and verbalize that and make fun or belittle Kimura's tree because it's different. (This just maybe a bad hypothetical situation to use) but rather come to the conclusion and say, "That Mr. Naka is wonderful, and God Bless him for all of his wonderful contributions to bonsai. I am better off and my bonsai is better off because of him. Now, what's this... Wow! Who's tree is this? Kimura who? Now that's different, but what a wonderful tree this is too! " Gleen the from the wonderful source of knowledge that they both have to offer and be better off because of it!" Instead of just judging it or call it what you want and write it off as junk because of our own biases. Or instead of making fun of this person or thier trees or whatever... look and say, "Is there anything that I can learn from this person?" See what I'm trying to say... that's all I was trying to say... and Al, if I hit a soft spot... sorry?

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Psalms-91

bonsaial1

Uh oh.. Matts version of Disneyland is to send the whole thread to the "TEST ZONE Area 51".

Summer, gets everyone feeling a little hot under the collar. Man bring on the summer..
Al

__________________
I been kidding the last seven years.
no.... really!

TreeBay

Hi Al,

That was only a temporary move so I could copy the thread and put the DUES in the DUES thread and the CONTEST in the CONTEST thread.

Why? Because they are both controversial subjects and having the two of them in the same thread was making my head hurt.

Everything should be accounted for now!

Regards,

Matt

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