Is it ok to chop??

akhater

I have been reading on the net and it seems quite usual that people look for well established trees with thick trunk and just chop them to make them bonsais. It makes me think of all those commercial bonsais found in nurseries.

Does a chopped bonsai worth (not money wise but bonsai wise) as much as one trained as bonsai from the beggining??

what do you, bonsai freeks, think about chopping.

Advertisement

John Dixon

It depends. Chopping is one way to introduce taper into a long non-tapered trunk. It also forces appropriate branching and other attributes. It's just a technique, and to "value" a bonsai simply over whether it was created by a chop is not practical. Anyway, in one form or another MOST bonsai have received a chop during their life. Very common.

Best regards,

John

__________________
John Dixon

Si vis pacem parabellum

Stay off the trails of others, that's where the booby-traps are.

Jay

This is one question that is best answered by the old saying.. 'The end justifies the means'. What you want is the results how you get there can be different, take different lengths of time and involve different methods.... for that matter the result may be different from the result of someone else designing the tree, but the result, the Bonsai, the Art, is what we are going towards....

my 2 cents
Jay

__________________
A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49...
Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing

cbobgo

Pretty much every good bonsai tree you see anywhere has been trunk chopped at some point. There is really no other way to get a thick trunk then to let it grow then chop it back.

So it doesn't really matter if you started training your bonsai from seed, or from a collected tree, or from a shrub from a nursery. The same techniques are used. There is no lesser value in doing it one way verses another.

- bob

__________________
"As a twig is bent the tree inclines" - Virgil (70BC-19BC)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Check out my blog: bonsaiapprentice

John Dixon

[QUOTE=Jay]This is one question that is best answered by the old saying.. 'The end justifies the means'.

Jay,

Ever since I took ethics in college I have been waiting to use the term teleological philosophy in a conversation. Now I can, since "the ends justifies the means" is exactly that concept.

On the other hand, the deontological philosophy is that regardless of whether the final "end" is good, you cannot do something "bad" to obtain it.

Gee, that only took YEARS to come in handy. And over a subject of "trunk chop" to boot!!!

Deontological terminology also relates to the naturalistic aspect of the world. I guess that, in bonsai, we tend to follow this ethical belief. We look to do good in our actions, but sometimes fail to acheive a positive result (like a dead bonsai). Of course the argument is, would chopping off the top of a growing thing be "bad", but a teleological pursuit of a good end? Funny how a subject about trunk-chopping growing stock, to make bonsai, illicited that thought from me.

Maybe there is hope. Then again, my brain is starting to hurt.

Take care ya'll,

John

__________________
John Dixon

Si vis pacem parabellum

Stay off the trails of others, that's where the booby-traps are.

cbobgo

i hope this doesn't slide down into another discussion on bonsai cruelty!

- bob

__________________
"As a twig is bent the tree inclines" - Virgil (70BC-19BC)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Check out my blog: bonsaiapprentice

pootsie

Akhater:

Here is a link to an online article about trunk-chop basics:
Trunk_Chop_101

It's written by a well-respected bonsai critic who also provides technical information

pootsie

__________________
p.s. My cat is a bonsaiTALK Master.
Columbus Bonsai Society

FredL

Pootsie, thanks for the very interesting comments by Andy Ruttledge. How I love responses that actually address the question being asked!

And this is really a very good topic!

I've been trying to create good material from very average: the sort that is available everywhere at little or no expense, so this issue comes up constantly for me. I've watched the results of a whole lot of cuts I've made over the last three years to dozens of trees. I would say that the very best way to develop an understanding of trunk chops is to do a whole lot of it with a large number of trees - and see what happens!

I'd say that Andy offers very good advice and an excellent starting place, but I wouldn't get too doctrinaire about it. After while, a person gets a "feel" for what's liable to happen with a particular cut at a particular place, though often enough, the tree will respond quite differently to any particular technique than expected.

In general, I agree that most trees will get chopped several times before they become material ready for initial styling. I am finding that I like what I'm getting from several chops over the first several years. This is not to say that a single chop after a tree has reached a few inches in diameter will not work well. I am faced with this with seveal collected trees that I collected after I got the hang of collecting small trees. I consistently collected too much trunk at first, so I have some "Broom Handle" style trees that will have to be cut back (chopped) radically.

John Naka's "Bonsai Techniques I" provides some valuable rules of thumb regarding ratios of height to diameter and some other issues regarding trunk chops.

Fred

EarthgirlOK

Leave it to Pootsie to come up with good links...how many links do you have in your folder, Pootsie? I remember seeing a list of links you shared on another unnamed forum, and it was a long one!!!

__________________
Sonlight NurseryGreen Country Bonsai Society