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| View Poll Results: Which of the Cypress styles do you prefer? | |||
| Tree #1 - Formal upright style Look Here |
  
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35 | 63.64% |
| Tree #2 - Flat top literati style Look Here |
  
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11 | 20.00% |
| Tree #3 - Weeping style Look Here |
  
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9 | 16.36% |
| No opinion / No preference |
  
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0 | 0% |
| Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll | |||
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2-Dec-2002
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#21 |
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Tips:5¢ Advice:Free
 
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Which Cypress Do You Prefer
I have added a poll here so everyone can take a crack at it!
Regards, Matt
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2-Dec-2002
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#22 |
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bonsaiTALK Master Craftsman
 
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These two trees are like comparing night and day. Both are beautiful with fantastic work done by the artists. I feel the flattop is a bit top heavy, but that's just me. The formal upright has convincing taper top to bottom (with no reverse taper at the cut), which seems to be the trick in creating this style. The weeping tree appears to be a pond cypress, not bald cypress, which are different species. The picture of the grove is an immature stand of trees, so I don't think it supports an argument for either style since bonsai typically tries to create the illusion of great age. For those of you out there who believe the base diameter is out of proportion to the height, making the tree unbelievable, think again. I've seen many cypress with this base to height ratio growing in open marsh, along canal banks and in open water (due to coastal erosion). The variety of cypress styles growing in nature is astounding. I'll try to dig up some photos tonight.
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"With the death of the Shamen, artists are the last interpreters of the Divine." Joseph Campbell |
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2-Dec-2002
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#23 | |
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Old Mister Crow
 
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Quote:
What if you came from Mars ( or certain art schools, for that matter ) and had never seen a real live tree? Would you then think that all bonsai suck, because they don't fit the traditional rules of Martian (or post-modern, or whatever) composition? Maybe, but somehow I don't think that would reflect poorly on bonsai. But I'm just being contentious here, mostly because it's fun and partly because Al would be disappointed if I didn't kick up a little bit of a fuss. Al makes a number of excellent points regarding that first tree. It really is an incredible piece of bonsai art. The taper and live apex are stunning. Myself, I like the second tree even more. Partly because it is innovative. Think of it this way: At some point some group of artists fashioned trees that gave rise to the bunjin style. They didn't follow the previous rules of bonsai either. But imagine the thrill of seeing the first generation of trees developed in this style, a style that had been developed in your own country, by your contemporaries... I'm all for tradition, and I'm certainly no far of the "rules be damned" approach, but every now and then there will be innovations. Some will stick around for centuries. Others will go the way of 80's synthesizer pop. Flattop style? Time will tell. Maybe I'm just listing to Flock of Seagulls here, but I really like #2. All the best, OMC
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In love with trees |
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3-Dec-2002
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#24 |
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Bonsai Doer
 
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Does innovative run rough shod over simple beauty. While the FT(flat top) tree is executed very well, according to the pics of trees I've seen, does that make it more desirable because it is innovative. A tree in a bonsai pot with a burning plastic car wrapped wround it is innovative too. I just don't think I want one in my collection.
While bonsai asthetics are a personal thing, I am sure there are those that stand up for non-cookie cutter trees. This would be one. For me anyway, in my meager collection, which is nothing, this would not be the super masterpiece type tree that I would seek out to put the finishing touches on my collection. For me, this would not be the " be all, end all" tree. I feel that no. 1 fits that more precisely. BTW, while putting together some older photos, I ran across these from a show in 1994. This was a section titled, (in training) at the show. It gave everyone someplace to show off work that was starting to look like bonsai, but not quite there. I show there alot. I started the tree in 1990. It is a heather. I think it fits the bill as my representation of a flat top cypress in a swamp somewhere. The tree is about 5" tall, in a drum pot that my son made in school. I think I still have the pot. I think it is rather "innovative". Best regards, Bonsai-al
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I been kidding the last seven years. no.... really! |
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3-Dec-2002
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#25 |
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Bonsai Doer
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BTW, check out those early attempts at building stands. I built these in 1993. I have come a long ways in 9 years. Check out the one on the left. Big clunky top with little spindly legs. The legs on the other one are just as bad. All made out of Doug Fir, I had no resource for exotic woods then.
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I been kidding the last seven years. no.... really! |
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3-Dec-2002
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#26 | |
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Old Mister Crow
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Quote:
Goodness gracious, Al, did you get to the word "innovative" and just stop reading? Innovative is one thing, but I'm not defending innovation for innovation's sake. I am saying there must have a been a special thrill to seeing the first bunjin trees - because these were innovations that worked and that ultimately changed the way we see the artform of bonsai. If they were new but bereft of artistic value, then the hell with them. As I see it, this tree holds its own where artistic value is concerned. And for me, there's a special thrill that comes from seeing the artform move forward in my own time. Now mind you, I'm not trying to say that the flattop is the next bunjin. It's a much smaller innovation, more along the lines of one of the minor styles of one of the minor schools of penjing, perhaps. As for your tree? How do I say this nicely... A flat-top juniper in a bunjin drum makes as much sense as a broom style pine in a granite slab. Don't confuse innovation with incongruity. Best regards, Old Mister
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In love with trees Last edited by Carl Bergstrom : 3-Dec-2002 at 02:37 AM. |
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3-Dec-2002
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#27 |
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Tips:5¢ Advice:Free
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You know, I think the bunjin style has been around a lot longer than the formal upright! There are some really old Chinese garden manuals and scrolls that depict this style of planting. It takes some pretty serious technique to grow "perfect trees" and as the first bonsai were collected, I think the formal upright came much later, along with weights, branch tying and finally wiring.
Just a thought, Matt
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3-Dec-2002
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#28 |
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bonsaiTALK Master Chief
Join Date: Oct-2002
Location: MELB
Country: AUSTRALIA
Posts: 1,183
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YING and YANG .In ying there is some yang and in yang there is some ying So how can u compare
 ROBOKU |
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3-Dec-2002
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#29 |
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bonsaiTALK Expert
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Keep going OMC and Al! This thread is getting interesting. You are both making very good points, and you are well matched at verbal sparring. Whether you realize it or not, a lot can be learned from your opinions. But then...I guess you know that!
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3-Dec-2002
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#30 |
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bonsaiTALK Master Craftsman
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If I were asked to choose, I'd leave both where they are for the rest of the world to enjoy and learn from. I've got "monster cypress". I also have one of Vaughan's flat tops... one of his early ones and probably the only one finished by his hand in a personal collection.
Technically, I would like to see buttressing on the flat top. To do the style means starting with material that is relatively young. On trees in the swamp you will see dead rotted bases - I think this happens during drought years, but the "cut offs" are pretty obvious. Poor post-collection handling is to blame. The base of cypress should be buried 6-8" for the first couple of years following collection to ensure new root growth from these cut areas. If the soil does not keep these areas wet you get this result... I've met and learned a bit from Vaughan, much from Gary Marchal, and now work side by side by "third generation" a student of the above two, Alex Liang. You are comparing night and day... an "immature" cypress form with an ancient one. I admire and love both forms. The first may seem to exaggerate the taper, but in some areas (Henderson Swamp) trees will grow these massve bases, relatively short squat trunks, with varying branch structures- from "immature" pine tree style to flat top and various intermediate forms... And how are we to judge these? By Japanese rules? Al spelled them out well. But most trees fail on these - apply them to collected trees- they will fail. Apply them to most junipers... If you show the flat top to a Japanese bonsai artist it will be "bad bonsai"! I've done it. Even taking them into the swamps... you'll get a polite nod of understanding but the bonsai will still be "bimbo"- bad. It doesn't fit their imagery... not a broom. Not a formal upright... dad gum Amurricans again mucking with the rules... The funny thing is, you can grow pines, oaks, all sorts of trees in a flat top style and you have legitimate imagery, at least for my part of the Gulf Coast. I don't know why they grow this way but they do. Most members of the general public don't undererstand the driftwood style. Ask them what "looks" the best, the most mini-tree-like and they likely go to a formal upright juniper and a broom style elm. It's what their internal imagery says is a "tree". Growing tired of rules myself, which I think are for Westerner's benefit primarily, books, teaching, etc., It would be nice to see us move beyond... I think the real key is about capturing "essence". That's one of Vaughan's basic teachings- follow the rules but also look at real trees constantly; distill the spirit and use these images. Create a bonsai you'd like to spread a blanket under and crack a bottle of wine. I think you'd get kinda wet under both of these though. Have these trees captured the intended "essence"? I'd say yes... at least for us Southern boys... If we could only get some dwarf spanish moss... Jim Stone TX |
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