Mysterious Pine Conundrum

guffmeister

Yeah, sure. I'll try and get some pictures posted on here soon if I have time. The first few to pop up from the ground have started to grow some of its proper needles, so I should be able to really narrow down the possibilities soonish.

I read the info on the webpage you posted some time ago Chris before it was posted here, and thought I could take this oppurtunity to ask you something about it. Instead of this process, what do you think of this idea I had for developing strong side roots...

Simply, I was thinking that you could put a large object, like a brick, in the middle of a pot and fill soil all around it. Then placing the seedling on the brick, flat on top of it, and covering the bare roots with a small layer of soil, about 1-3cm deep (a bit like a root over rock style with the rock under the ground). The roots would grow horizontally to the edge of the brick, then down into the rest of the pot. Eventually the roots on the brick would thicken, and you could expose them in a later repotting...worth an experiment or am I taking rubbish here?

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bwaynef

Guffmeister,

(Interesting nick,) That is actually pretty common procedure. Its used to encourage nebari (side roots?) early on. A piece of slate, or a broken dish works just as well. Good luck with your seedlings.

Wayne F.

Vance Wood

Chris: On first reading of your reply to the original post I was struck with the impression that you were suggesting that Guffmiester, aka Ta, should use this technique. On reading a second and third time I realize that was not the case. However I would think it is possible that the same impression was given to the original poster. I guess I fond it out of place to be laying this kind of information on someone who is just asking about what to do with a couple of Pine seedlings and how to keep them through the winter.

Pines are complecated enough for even those who have a few of them and have done enough work and spent enough time to have spaned a couple of repots. Time and again I have to deal with someone who has brought a pine to me that is just barely in the development stage and they are already agonizing of needle reduction because most of the writtern material does not deal with the begining of training. Instead most articles deal with the finer points of culture suited to finished and partially finished bonsai.

In the same vain making cuttings of seedlings is a technique for those who have had some success with pines and have aquired a feel for their cultivation as far as water and fertilizer is concerned. It is questionable that the discussion of taking cuttings from seedlings, as good a method as there is, is of any value to the beginer but to confuse and distract form the issues at hand.

guffmeister

Oh, don't worry, I realise that a lot of written work on the internet is aimed at trees much more developed than my little seedlings. I have a number of trees all at varying levels of development, so I can appreciate that my seedlings aren't quite as developed as my oldest ones, and I can also appreciate what Chris was saying about trying to get the seedlings in a good state to work with. I have a fair understanding of the methods used on pines, but I haven't had too much experience. It seems you can read about pruning, pinching, de-candling, etc, etc all year round, but you only get a month or two a year to practice it in.

My follow-up e-mail was just to ask about whether or not my rooting idea would work, because I have been discouraged from the cutting method just due to the fact I think its a little too touch-and-go whether the plants pull through half the time, and I was trying to find a more guaranteed option to good nebari. I don't know why, but I can't seem to find places that sell hundreds of pine seedlings, like from the bigraphies and stories I read on the net. Is that just an American thing, or do they sell pines in bulk like that in Britain? I only get 10-20 pine seeds, let alone seedlings to work on, so I can't risk losing them half the time, especially when I forget about them and plant them in the middle of summer...duh.

bonsaikc

Vance, after re-reading the first post, I also believe I may have been less precise than I should have been and others may have misunderstood the post. My intention was to show just how young those seedlings were. I have tried the seedling cutting route, but I have to tell you, for a full-time worker in the midwest, it's hard to keep them alive in the summer without a greenhouse and misting system. Much easier with the plugs.

I am not as sanguine about the plate under the roots method of producing nebari. All those roots have to go somewhere, even the ones directly under the trunk. The problem with trees the age yours are is that they have no weight and have to be tied down to the tile. The roots are so small and delicate that this is a tricky operation at best. With my plugs, I simply bare-rooted them all and pruned for nebari. Then I put them in the six inch pots with soil a little high to hold them in. They took off, growing two season's worth the first year, and I have very nice nebaris on a number of them.

The important thing to know about your trees is what size trees you are looking for in the end product. Do you want large trees? You almost certainly must put them in the ground. Medium trees? Ground or growing pots. Smaller trees? The water pond baskets work great for that.

So if you notice on my website, the trees are only three years old and are already developing some character. In the next couple of years, growth will accelerate because I will not be repotting them, just increasing the fertilizer and removing caked soil on top. When they begin to fill those pots, I will just sink them into larger pots without touching the root ball and they continue growing unabated. All in all it may be a decade long process. And I have gone from 100 plugs to about 25 or 30 surviving trees. Some of those are in the ground and will have to be potted up in the heat of summer if we sell the place and have to move. So your best bet is to rely on numbers and have lots of material to work with.

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ripssurf

guff,

i like what your line below your handle.

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