Minimal Bonsai

mikerosal

"Jay, OK, forget that money has anything to do with it. What do you think of the idea of creating bonsai for the pleasure of others?"

Wasn't it that this was one of the first reasons why people do bonsai? We do bonsai for our own pleasure and then we share that pleasure to others...thought it may not be to all...but at least to some people we would like to share them with...just my two cents in the art of bonsai...

Mike

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Mike Rosal
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Thought is the arrow of time; memory never fades.
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Jay

Fred, if we DO forget the money and just look at the "idea of creating bonsai for the pleasure of others", I find it wonderful. But I am a little unsure about it to a degree.

You are going to take a seed, seedling, young tree etc etc... spend years developing this tree and give it away? You will get great pleasure in the giving and the receiver will also be delighted.

Or, are you going to chop up a nursery tree and get it to market quickly?

Or, Hopefully, are you going to spend the time and effort for the years that it will take and display your trees for the enjoyment and pleasure of others.....

I have my opinions on which is prefered but I do not know I am correct in my feelings for anyone but me!

my 2 cents
Jay

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A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49...
Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing

FredL

Hi again, Jay,

I'm not sure that any of these ideas are not real fine ones. I think any of them can be expressions of this approach.

When I was thinking about bonsai having to be about either preparing trees for contests or doing it just for my own pleasure, I was really feeling the typical bad feelings that come from dealing with a dilemma with no satisfactory choice. I didn't want to do either one, but that's how I was seeing the alternatives. Now I see things quite differently.

I am fortunate in being in a position where I can do whatever I want to without really worrying about getting repaid. So, your thought about investing years of effort into trees that I give away is very appealing to me. At the same time, I find the idea of selling trees over e-bay also very appealing. Heck, the $20 or $30, or even $100 that I might get for a tree doesn't mean anything to me, but the idea of someone finding my efforts worth repayment is somehow very satisfying.

If you look at someone like Walter Pall, you can't help but be impressed by the generosity of his spirit. He spends so much time here helping others for free, it amazes me. His time has to be worth $50 an hour, but he provides it with such generosity! So, I don't think his desire to be compensated for his trees comes from any lack of generosity or economic need. Same with Andy Ruttledge and others. Well, not exactly the same with Andy, my take is that he could use the bucks! Nevertheless, he personifies the desire to be of real service to others and provide honest value for whatever repayment he receives.

I don't see the conflict between the desire to provide service to others and the desire to receive fair repayment that others apparently see. When I started this thread, it was with the idea of beginning to discover what honest value was in the area of bonsai and trying to discover whether I might be capable of producing it. The many comments I have received have brought me a long way in that direction, even (maybe especially) by the comments that were made in a rather hostile manner. The comments attacking the American concern about money and the responses made to that were unexpected, but actually rather illuminating.

Alltogether, this has been a very educational thread for me and took me a long way towards understanding the issues I had in mind when I started it.

Best regards, Fred

Jay

Fred, it is always good to see that the person starting a thread is pleased with its direction and its content. I agree that much good was bantered about here.

You are 100% correct about the generous nature of Walter and others to give of themselves to help others. I agree there is a monetary value to their input and it is LARGE!

As for you being able to do the work, spend the time, and sell or give your trees to others for your pleasure. It is a good thing!!!

I only suggest you think about a more direct approach to your own generousity. Selling on ebay may not be reaching the people you think. Judging by the trees and the prices they command, the knowledge base of many (not all) of the ebay buyers is limited.
May I suggest that you go through your club or one somewhat nearby. You can help the members who are just starting get good stock at fair prices. I remember when I only had two or three trees. I wanted and needed more. I wish I had someone who would have been able to offer trees that were developed for Bonsai at reasonalble prices. Of course I went to garden centers and out back on my property and started with far less exceptable material.

__________________
A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49...
Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing

Treebeard

Fred, Your altruistic slant on things is admirable.

I just thought of something though. If it has been raised before then forgive me, I am having trouble keeping up with your threads...

Unfortunately, the recipient of your altruism might for all you know be thinking "so long, sucker!" when they buy something at knock-down price. They may not neccesarily think you are the best thing since sliced bread. What I'm trying to say is that you yourself may well feel all warm and glowy at giving someone a good deal, but they on the other hand may be laughing at you for selling cheap. Now I don't mean to imply that all buyers will think like this, just some. If you can live with a certain percentage being genuinely happy and grateful and ignore the rest then good luck to you.

Another thing, if you sell cheap, out of altruistic motives, the buyer might just be buying cheap to later sell on themselves at the real going rate. I would hate to see you being used like this.

I am sure you have thought of these things, but just in case...

Regards,

TB

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FredL

Jay, I've enjoyed your comments. In regard to e-bay, I think a case could be made that the people who go to it are just as needful and worthy of our best efforts as anybody else. And, what about viewing e-bay as an educational venue as well as a marketing channel? Or, as education as part of our marketing strategy?

Fred

FredL

Well, actually, TB, I hadn't thought much about your points.

Interestingly enough, the almost exact same question came up in our men's group discussion at church two weeks ago and set off one of the liveliest discussions we've had in weeks. A number of different responses were suggested, but nobody seemed completely satisfied. At least, not after we'd heard the many other ideas that other people thought, at least at first, were the "right" answers.

I guess evil is always baffling to men of good will, just as good is baffling to men of evil. Having, uhappily, been on both sides of that fence a time or three in the past, I can tell you that from experience!

Fred

Jay

Fred, just something else as ' food for thought.

With my pots, I am trying to figure out the proper price to sell them out. On all accounts I wish to sell them at a fair price. But... on one hand I wish to give my 'friends' online and at the club a break, hey I'm new at it. If I do, am I guilty of lowering the price that people will expect for a certain grade of pot?

Again not comparing my work as a whole with Sara or Dale or Michael (to name a few), but if I have a pot that happens to be near the quality and value of theirs and I price it for 40 - 50% of their price, am I lowering peoples perception of what they should pay?

On the other hand, if I price my pots higher, say 90% of the 'BIG BOYS/GIRLS' am I being greedy.

I know the market will determine the value and if it is there they will buy.... but.....
Note - I have said price my pots.... who knows if any will sell!

As for your trees the same applies to my thinking. Selling them to people you know, club members, at reduced price/value is one thing but to let them out to the world at these possible greatly reduced prices may possible harm the full time professional people. The public may think that THIS is the true price for a tree of x type in y condition.....
This is a hard one!

Hey they are just thoughts
Jay

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A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49...
Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing

Emperor Fish

Jay,

You make some good points.

Why not sell / price the pots at what you think is a fair valuation for your time, materials, quality and margin? Then, if you want to give people a good deal on the side, if they are newly starting out, friends etc - that's up to you. If your pots are of a good enough quality, there will be plently of people willing to part with cash for them, including myself. It always feels good to get what one thinks is a great deal, but if you underprice your product in the first place then not only will you be loosing out financially and potentially damaging your future brand value, but also limiting people's expectations of your pots.

I wouldn't worry too much about the professionals - if their pots are so good, people will still part with cash for them. We aren't really talking about comparing apples with apples anyway in my opinion - it's not as if we are talking high volume widgets, we are talking about pots to display bonsai - an art-form within an art-form and people often have favourite potters despite cost.

Just my thinking.

Fish.

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