Minimal Bonsai

K.A. Rutledge

In answer to the original question (one answer, anyway), as "paint on a canvas" is a painting, a "tree in a pot" is a bonsai.

As to the point at which a bonsai is "legitimate," that is going to vary according to each individual's standards. Those of long-time training and depth of understanding are going to have different standards from those with little training and understanding. This is only natural.

I agree with Matt, it's a moving target. Little is accomplished or defined by trying to nail down such a thing.

Kind regards
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/
zone 8, Texas

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FredL

Oh, come on Andy, I learned quite a bit thinking this thing through. Except the percent of disagreement is really bugging me.

Well said Attila!

And, as for Carmi and Fish: What do I care if you guys don't like me because I'm obsessed with money? The Dow Industrial Average is up over 100 points today and I'm more than $3800 richer! Life is good!

Joy to the world! Fred

Bonsai-gecko

Lets us not forget also the money the U.S.A. spends on supporting peacekeepers throughout the world. I doubt things like that are figured into the numbers you quote. Though I do not want to start a heated debate on our foriegn policy (since many americans themselves disagree along with the rest of the world on whats right) the fact is that in many many situations when the UN decides to put peace keepers in an area the VAST majority of the time it is mde up by a very large majority of americans citizens. People risking their lives to settle disputes around the world. I think that is pretty generous.

Please remember though, that generosity is not only figured in monetary numbers. The United States AND other countries give in much other ways to other countries. This can be debt releif, PRIVATE charities, volunteer work (ie. peace corp.), etc. I don't think there is any way to add up all the non-governmental expendentures in time and money and come to a conclusion on just what country or society is more generous.


Also, with a background in law enforcement, I can say that a LOT of the reported "higher crime rate" in America is do infact to a large extent by better record keeping and reporting. The FBI compiles the statistics for the US, and has done a great deal to standardize and modernize the way in which it is done. While I won't stereotype what nationalities are more likely to REPORT crimes, in the international circle many countries have poor ways of compiling statistics, OR in some cases purposly provide false statistics to try to convince the international community that they do not have internal problems. Countries with less personal freedom are often suspected or found guilty of altering figures in order to make the idea of a free country look less inticing to their citizens.

Yes, America has certian places where the crime rate is very high, but as a whole I beleive this is a remarkable safe country. Maybe we have a greater prison population because we catch more of the criminals? Then agian it could be(is) the drug war.

As for minimal bonsai. As a beginner, I go by the beleif that if it really looks to me like a miniature TREE (not a brach/twig ie. mallsai) in a pot, than it is a bonsai.

RonMartin(deceased)

Ever wonder why countries are always compared with the US. Why not England, France or Germany. How about Brazil, that is a pretty big country. Use them for a change.
As an American I am fed up with setting the standards. Tired of being a statistic. Not everything is our fault. We did not invent everything. We are not smarter (or dumber) that the rest of the world. No we did not invent slavery.
We are just people. Just trying to do the best we can. Sometimes we goof up but we do try. That has to mean something.
Now I do feel a bit better. Got that off my chest. Sorry about the outburst.

carmi

Good morning form Jerusalem,
I apologize before the Great People of America for stereotyping and generalizing, part of it because of my poor command of the English language and the great part because of my stupidity.
But,
If I would be asked to define and classify a cottage cheese in the supermarket, I would certainly define the taste the texture and the color, probably I would not mention any money value.
If I would be asked to define any art object I certainly would not mention any money value, I consider Bonsai as Art even for the amateurs.
As Attila very nicely "sharpened the point" (can one say it in English?-it's a direct translation from Hebrew):
Is money is the most honest measurement of people's feelings?
I am here not judging anything, but to emphasize the different way of thinking of Walter and Fred (as I understand it).

Fred,
Learning reading and talking about the "Oriental hocus-pocus" is quit different from living by it, from my humble knowledge there is no value for money there.
And,
quote "I was virtually the only one in my college fraternity who wasn't Jewish and that over my life an entirely disproportionate number of my close friends had been Jewish"

The above mentioned fact certainly qualifies you my friendship.

BTW, not all the Israelis are Jewish, and in my opinion the Israelis Jews are quit different from the American Jews.

Fish, I am truly amazed...

__________________
Shalom (Peace),
Moshe.

Colors are an optic illusion of light – As viewers for the bonsai creation. M.S.C.

Emperor Fish

Carmi, Fred,

Sometimes it's fun just to play with ideas. Everyone knows you can prove and disprove anything with a statistic or two!

Back to bonsai.

Regards,

Fish.

__________________
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill.

HEALTH WARNING: Engage brain fully, before typing into keyboard.


"We are the average gamers and we'll kill you badly. There'll be no finesse. no fancy tricks, no inventive attacks, just 2 whole smg clips and a rain of 'nades."

FredL

Carmi and Fish,

Thank you for your gracious and concillatory comments. Actually, your earlier comments, as well as those, have me thinking down some new paths. Allow me to share:

It wasn't until I started thinking about selling some of my material through e-bay that I started thinking about what value to others, if any, my trees might have. Well, might have someday. That, and comments by Walter and Attila got me going on where does the pleasure of Bonsai come from. Attila started a short thread that deserved more attention than it got on the nature of happiness. Seems his source's conclusions were alot like what my church has been trying to get me understand for a number of years: that pleasure is fleeting but joy comes from serving others. I probably should have been paying closer attention, after donating more than 10% of my income to them every month for many years.

Anyway, I started looking at my trees in a very different way when I started thinking about how I should treat them if their primary purpose was to create pleasure for others. It occurred to me that looking at them merely as a source of pleasure for myself was really pretty self-indulgent and lent itself to a passive, kind of lazy relationship with them devoid of any real zeal to improve them to a high standard.

OK, so many people look down their noses at people who strive to create value for others and think of it as being a perverted desire to make money. Myself, I think that approach to life is what creates individual prosperity and successful societies Somebody said, I can't remember who, that making money is among the most innocent of human activities and I believe that.

Americans have pretty much figured out what is required to create a prosperous society. Likewise, Western Europeans. It's hard to argue with that. People all over the world are voting with their feet in support of that assertion. I think it's because they see that they, too, can become properous in such a society and this is what most normal human beings want for themselves and those they love.

Now, when most people in the world look at America, it is the enormous prosperity of our society that they see first. I think they are blinded to many other aspects of our society because they are so struck by that. I don't think that they see the spirituality that co-exists with the prosperity because it is not as highly unusual in the world as our prosperity. From my observations around the world, Americans are just as spiritual as anybody else and no more interested in money, which is to say, in a kinder way, prosperity. It's just that Americans have figured out how to create prosperity.

And, I find that when I bring that perspective to my bonsai, it creates alot more motivation towards excellence.

Fred

Jay

Fred, just a thought....

When you start 'playing' for money the whole view of a subject changes. Enjoy your trees and try and not to think of value as a price.... when money enters a certain amount of pleasure leaves

I love my trees and my pots.... I try not to think of selling trees but the pots are becoming to numerous... as I think of selling them it is becoming a job and not a joy... it is a shame I can not seperate the two, hopefully it is just a failing in me and you will be different... but I think it is true to a degree in all of us.

When money enters ...... demons come with it!

Jay

__________________
A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49...
Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing

Attila

Jay,

I work on the stock market and on my side of the fence is common knowledge that the biggest obstacle to make money is people's emotional attitude towards money.

So you are absolutely right, with money come the demons.

The secret is to learn to view money with a different eye. See as just a number, a convention, totally neutral, not good and not bad. A unit of measurement, like meter, liter, pound.

Our successful traders learn to do that. The minute it happens, the fear, the emotions are gone. I've seen people making close to $100,000 in an hour without a single blink of an eye or a smile.
It could have gone the other way, with the same reaction.
Life becomes much simpler.

Regards,
Attila