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16-Sep-2003
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#21 |
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Attila Soos
 Join Date: Jan-2002
Location: Los Angeles, California
Country: USA
Posts: 1,924
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Carmi,
money can be an important measure of how much heart you put in something. If you dish out of lot of dough, that's usually because your heart is there. Little money = little heart. People put their money where their heart is. That doesn't mean that americans value money more than people from the middle east (try to get through an egiptian market with your money hanging out, see how much you will last). It's the most honest measurement of people's feelings. Regards, Attila |
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16-Sep-2003
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#22 |
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bonsaiTALK Master Craftsman
 
Join Date: Feb-2002
Location: Israel Ganei-Tikva
Country: ISRAEL
Posts: 735
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Well right on the point:
Is money is the most honest measurement of people's feelings? I am afraid it is a very (and typical) American way of thinking. BTW there are more places much more dangerous in the USA than the Egyptian market, there they may steal your money but not cut your throat... I had been there and in the USA.
__________________
Shalom (Peace), Moshe. Colors are an optic illusion of light – As viewers for the bonsai creation. M.S.C. |
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16-Sep-2003
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#23 |
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Attila Soos
Join Date: Jan-2002
Location: Los Angeles, California
Country: USA
Posts: 1,924
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Carmi,
I don't mean to argue your point at all, but I have to tell you that I am not american (except that I live in the USA). 90% of my life I lived (born and raised) in Europe. So I don't think that I would qualify for your "typical" american. If I do, thanks for the compliment. Sincerely, Attila |
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16-Sep-2003
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#24 |
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Banned 08JUN2005
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Carmi, I think your stereotypes are showing. I defined my catagories in a variety of ways, including monetary. Walter made about as many observations about monetary value as I did. As you may have observed if you have been reading this forum for awhile, I am constantly harping on the spiritual aspects of Bonsai while Walter has often made fun of my fondness for "Oriental hocus-pocus" (to use his term).
I think your descent into bashing American stereotypes is regrettable.Last week, I got into a rather heated debate with a guy who I consider a jerk over remarks he made about his belief that Jews are a bunch of money grubbing shysters who control the US and European banking systems. And alot of other observations in the same vein. Well, you get the idea. I told him that I was virtually the only one in my college fraternity who wasn't Jewish and that over my life an entirely disproportionate number of my close friends had been Jewish and that I knew from personal experience his assertions were absolutely false. So you're not the only one that I've gotten into a dispute with recently over stereotype bashing. I think your observations of American society are totally off base. For all its faults, the US is the most genuinely religious society in the world today, as well as the most generous. It is amazing to me at times how a person's "mental models" and paradigms filter and distort what (s)he experiences. Thanks for being today's example of this. Best regards, Fred |
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16-Sep-2003
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#25 |
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YOU CAN NOT RUSH TIME
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Well, I guess I AM A TYPICAL (many may disagree) American.
First, there ain't no such thing. This country is rather large in size, those of us living in the northeast are different from those in the south or southwest. The far west is still different and for that matter my next door neighbor may view things differently than me! I do not think that ALL EUROPEANS are the same! As for value, I assure you that not all Americans see dollar signs when they look at Bonsai. I never wonder how much this or that tree is worth or costs, that is unless I am looking to purchase it. I do not have a feel for the dollar value of my trees, some of which were purchased and others collected. If I go to an exhibit or show, I marvel at the trees, look at them with an eye to what I may see as something needing to be attended to, or see what someone has done to correct or hide a flaw. The only figures that interest me are the appearace of age, not even the actual age. In most cases, I think most Bonsaist from all over the world feel the same. I remember seeing a tree in a show, it was the most beautiful, near perfect tree I have seen in person. I loved it, knew it to be of great value but had no idea of the so called price. When some one passing by mentioned to his partner that the tree was valued at $XX,000 I took note. It did not affect my opinion of the tree one bit..... my typical american 2 cents Jay
__________________
A Bonsai student living with his trees at N 44.37 W 77.49... Think before you act... then think again... no good comes from rushing |
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16-Sep-2003
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#26 |
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bonsaiTALK Master Craftsman
Join Date: Feb-2002
Location: Israel Ganei-Tikva
Country: ISRAEL
Posts: 735
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Fred,
Attila suggested that money is the most honest measurement of people's feelings pleas comment on this issue. Some of my best friends are Americans (not Jewish), some even African American  There is no question about America being the most genuinely religious society in the world today, as well as the most generous. Pleas don't start here another "religious war" that is not the question and this is not the place.
__________________
Shalom (Peace), Moshe. Colors are an optic illusion of light – As viewers for the bonsai creation. M.S.C. |
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16-Sep-2003
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#27 |
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bonsaiTALK Master
 
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Math problem
If 100 people result in 30 opinions, that would mean only 3.3 persons agree to a particular opinion. Therefore, there's 96.7% disagreement. I think that's right.
Clear as mud Maybe Jay can do one of his statistical things....
__________________
Paul "Life will be sweet like a rhapsody When I paint my materpiece" |
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16-Sep-2003
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#28 |
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bonsai is not my hobby
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If 100 masters are asked to choose 15 best trees from 100 trees and come up with 30 different trees then they have agreement on 15, which is 50 percent.
That's what I figure as an economist whose major was statistics. But this can be wrong again. It is pretty close to reality though. fun Walter Pall Fred: what was the subject of this thread  |
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16-Sep-2003
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#29 |
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Attila Soos
Join Date: Jan-2002
Location: Los Angeles, California
Country: USA
Posts: 1,924
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I don't see what's wrong admitting the importance of money in the world of bonsai.
Throughout the history, money and people associated with money were allways vilified (see the sad fate of money exchangers and merchants in Europe and the Middle East). Not so long ago, if a kid in a european school told the teacher that he wants to make money for a career, he would be branded as a monster in need of counceling. I think this aversion towards money matters still prevails in certain parts of the Old World, although global trade certainly helped opening peolpe's mind about it. American society has a much healthier attitude towards money. That's why America has become what it is today. Everybody can see it. Regards, Attila |
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16-Sep-2003
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#30 |
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Banned 08JUN2005
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Wellll, OK Carmi. I hereby accept your proposal for a cease-fire.
As for money being the truest measure of a person's feelings....... First of all, I sure felt a surge of gratitude for Atilla weighing in pretty much on my side of the dispute. What a guy! But, I think he has overstated the case. I bet he'd agree. Human feelings are so complex! It is hard to say ever for sure what another person feels or is motivated by. It does seem fair to say that actions speak louder than words, but I baffle myself, at times, by the things I do. I find myself doing the strangest things, especially when I have conflicting feelings or motives. It seems like as often as not, rather than responding to one feeling or the other, I will go off on some crazy tangent, as if I was an object choosing a vector which reacts to both forces. I'm very aware that my "good reasons" for doing things are often not my true reasons. That is, when I can figure either one of them out. I don't think money is the only important thing in the world. Far from it! But I do not choose to underestimate its significance. In the case of bonsai, I don't know whether you remember the comments I made awhile back contrasting the ideas of "precious" and "vauable". At that time, I made a plea for the importance of things that are precious to us as well as those things that are valuable. I went on and on (perhaps you don't recall it now because you fell asleep reading it at the time) about how important to us precious things are and how, in these times we live in, precious is being lost in favor of valuable. And that I felt in all the discussion of what makes Bonsai great art (valuable), what makes it precious to us individually was being lost. So, I guess, bottom line, I admit to a degree of confusion and ambivalence on this interesting but elusive subject. Atilla's comments, for me, contain alot of truth. But yet.......I find myself thinking there is alot more to the issue than he points out. And Carmi, thanks for letting us know you are able to be friends with even (gasp!) Black Americans. Makes me feel like even a half breed Indian guy like myself might someday win your friendship! Best regards, Fred |
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