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30-Aug-2003
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#1 |
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Bonsai nare-do-well
 
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Lord, I Need Help - Just what exactly is a pre-bonsai?
I spent a good portion of the day surfing the net for a definition of "pre-bonsai." It was a bit frustrating and educational at the same time. Educational is a term I would use loosely though.
It seems that a pre-bonsai is anything in a nursery pot or -- hate to say it -- in the ground. Another thing that I find dismaying is the fact that a lot, no most bonsai nurseries, think this is true. No style , no potential, just a plant. A customer buys the tree and magically it seems to improve. It becomes a "POTENSAI". What this means I am not sure. Maybe, potentially, one day it will be a bonsai. Maybe not,but maybe yes I guess. Backyards are full of these thing sold as pre-bonsai and elevated to "potensai" status. They languish there in the backyard. They are watered and fed, pampered and mostly hid from view. To say that I am confused would be an understatement. Why can't things be simple? Research for one of my silly articles is not all that easy. Why can't trees just be classified as, "those that will work and those that won't" or maybe, "things with no potential and things with some potential," or, "garbage and keepsakes?" I think I have come to the conclusion that bonsai people just like to put a name to things. The names don't have to make sense they just have to be there. If the rest of the endeavors of life were like this we would still be living in caves! Houses would be a dangerous thing. There would be a pretty roof and a grand foundation but no one would worry about the walls. Somewhere along the line I must have missed a lesson. I am confused. I feel like I am one French Fry sigh of a Happy Meal. Just what exactly is a pre-bonsai? Last edited by Ron Martin : 30-Aug-2003 at 10:35 PM. |
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Lord I Need Help !!! |
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30-Aug-2003
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#2 |
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bonsaiTALK Master
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Uhh, I always thought it was just a tree that is in a grow box or something developing a good trunk taper and branch structure before its showed off in a true pot for bonsai. But im probably confused as much as you.
Kevin
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30-Aug-2003
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#3 |
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bonsaiTALK Craftsman
 
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Pre-bonsai = A tree with great potential that someone else owns.
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You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands. Isaiah 55:12 |
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30-Aug-2003
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#4 | |
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Perpetual Novice
 
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Re: Lord I Need Help !!!
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Gee, Ron! I can just see it now. You having a sale table marked "things with no potential"  A nice try though. For me, a potensai is a tree that someone feels has potential as a bonsai. There's all the difference in the world between what you or Walter Pall may see as potensai, and what some poor schlub of my ability may see. Regards, Bart |
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31-Aug-2003
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#5 |
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Bonsai nare-do-well
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Some how I think both Walter and myself know what a pre-bonsai is and what is not. And I hate to say it but there is a table marked "Trees with no potential" and it does seem like there is a lot of people lined up to buy from that table.
But that was not what I was posting about. I was just looking for the difference between what most would call pre-bonsai and just plain nursery stock. Any way you can help me with that definition |
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31-Aug-2003
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#6 | |
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Perpetual Novice
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pre bonsai vs nursery stock
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Hi again, Ron. This may be like defining pornography: "I know it when I see it." However, I'll give it a try. Pre-bonsai must have some potential for bonsai. It's probably easier to define by exclusion. Thus, I would say that the following are nursery stock, NOT pre-bonsai. SHrubs with no really dominant trunk, particularly in consideration of their bulk. This would include things like arborvitae sold at home depot that consist of two trunks sheared to resemble one tree, and many garden center azaleas. Super pruned trees. I saw some dwarf scots pines with two inch trunks and decent roots, and got all excited until I realized that almost all the branches were (a) small, and (b) coming out of a crude chop on the trunk. Okay for landscape, but Not for bonsai. Species not suitable for bonsai due to growth characteristics. Ailanthus come to mind, and trees with large leaves that cannot be reduced to bonsai sizes. Note that I have not dealt with trees that may seem okay and been recognized as bonsai species, but where there is a question of quality. At this year's midatlantic convention, I heard Colin Lewis discussing two of Andy Smith's large Rocky Mountain Junipers. One he bought on the spot, describing it as the "bee's knees". The other, for about $100 less, he said "had too many problems. They could all be solved, but why bother." I would submit that both trees were legitimately pre-bonsai. On the other hand, a stick in a pot, in the right hands can become a bonsai as well. Is it a pre-bonsai, or a bonsai in spite of itself? I dunno. Regards, Bart Last edited by Bart Thomas : 31-Aug-2003 at 01:14 AM. |
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31-Aug-2003
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#7 |
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Tips:5¢ Advice:Free
 
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1. Pre-bonsai is more expensive than identical nursery stock.
2. Pre-bonsai doesn't count as an actual bonsai purchase when your spouse asks about the checkbook. 3. Pre-bonsai are allowed to have weeds in their containers. 4. If a Pre-bonsai dies, it was probably just as well you didn't invest a lot more time in it. 5. If you take a cutting or airlayer from a Pre-bonsai, the cut off bit is fre-bonsai. Regards, Matt
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31-Aug-2003
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#8 |
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Behr Appleby
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Ron, I think you have the best answer in the TreeBay response...These are all good answers...This should be included in your great articles on your website, with Matt's permission of course...
Now I have a new term to add to my bonsai vocabulary... Fre-bonsai...[pronunced with a long e, ex: free-bone-sigh]...A cutting or air layer Thanks for sharing this Matt... |
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31-Aug-2003
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#10 |
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Banned 08JUN2005
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Bart, haven't seen you before. Amusing comments, especially the first about selling the trees with no potential.
OK, here's what I'm struggling with. We all know that, whatever the difficulties and length of time involved, Bonsai can be grown from seed. I know this to be a fact, having seen a J. Black Pine grown from seed by Kimura in a copy of "Bonsai Today" a while back. Does this mean that year old seedlings are therefor pre-bonsai or potensai? Seeds themselves? I'd say not. It also seems to me that stock quite unsuitable or not even close to being ready for initial styling can be developed into credible or even great pre-bonsai or potensai material. An article on the development of J. Black Pine seedlings in BT, the work of Glenn "Ripsgreentrees" and what I see in my own back yard certainly convinces me of that. I've always thought that "pre-bonsai" and "potensai" were pretty much synonyms and signified trees or material that was clearly ready or close to ready for initial styling and potting in a bonsai pot. It normally does not have a fully developed or ramified branch structure, but does have something approaching an adequate trunk and nebarri, features much more time consuming to develop than branches. Good pre-bonsai material also has a good root system, suitable for potting, though this is somewhat more given to deviation from the ideal. As mentioned earlier, it is of a species or cultivar suitable for Bonsai. Myself, I find the development of "Potensai" (by this definition) a fascinating activity, though much disparaged by many of the more experienced or gifted practitioners. I can well understand their contempt for it. If I were capable of batting .356 in the major leagues, I doubt that I'd be interested in Softball at the annual church picnic. For me, however, it allows me to indulge my love of growing and developing trees without any of the pressure of developing highly refined Bonsai works of art. My little trees develop and improve little by little, year by year and I continue to have faith that they will become genuine bonsai when their time comes. Fred |
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