Learning Comes With A Price?

bonsaial1

Humm...question mark? I put that in the title because this is speculation on my part, and maybe we can discuss this.

I feel that the price may not be money. It may be the failures we encounter on the journey.

While it is an easy matter to learn from someone, will the instruction give the same results as trying it and failing and using that as the model.

Let me explain; If someone tells you that taking a tree to multiple instructors will spell certain death to your tree, and you do it anyway, you take a risk. If the tree lives, you feel cocky and may try it in the future and lose a really expensive tree.

If you try it , and surely it turns up dead, then I guarantee that will never be tried again. Sometimes learning and failures go hand in hand. Sometimes many failures lead to new techniques that will prevent failures in the future. I am sure that Kimura killed many trees separating live veins from deadwood before he perfected it. I am sure that if Andy Rutledge had been there he would have told he was crazy and that he better take a picture of that for tomarrow it will be dead.

We all know that Kimura separates live veins as easy as layers now. I am sure that I would kill many trees in the process of perfecting this technique, but I am not going to let anyone tell me not to try it. This is what bonsai, artistry, horticulture, technique is all about.

Eager for opinions, Al

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bonsaial1

BTW, that was a maple that I was growing out and training that succumbed to V.wilt.

I threw out the soil too!

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no.... really!

Carl_Bergstrom

Let's distinguish between learning from someone as in reading a book or listening to a lecture, and learning from someone as in working for a long period of time with a skilled instructor who you trust.

Learning from a good instructor involves plenty of doing, and a good instructor does plenty of criticizing, not just praising. A good student, meanwhile, takes the instructor seriously and does not make excuses for her own lapses. So in the end, when a good student is learning from a good instructor, the learning process does involve lots of trying it and failing.

The failing may be at the cost of a dismissive "That's no good, take off all the wire and try again" instead a dead tree, but it's still failing and it still works for me.

For me, the problem is finding ways to allow myself adequate time with my teacher.

-Carl

P.S. That's a really nice piece of material you're holding there (for a dead pine-style trident, anyway).

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bonsaial1

Splitting hairs, Failing is failing. I concur.

The point is, bonsai will always lead to experimentation. To hinder is shortsighted, to warn is wise, to talk down too and with mean spirit and pomposity, just condemn, is being an ass.

Oh yea, just my opinion
Al

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I been kidding the last seven years.
no.... really!

DavidN

Al, I too have lost J.maples to V.wilt. I asked the question of "what could be learnt from this". Considering I have lost many J.Maples to this disease I am concerned I haven't learnt anything from this. I never reuse the soil and always throw it away. That is the best lessen I have learnt from my failures against v.wilt. However I still kept losing some. Currently I have only seedling J.maple left. This has been my toughest and most frustrating failure as I could not figure out the solution. But I am a sucker for punishment and will keep trying.

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RonMartin(deceased)

This is a dangerous topic for me to get into. I, after all, do call myself a teacher. May be the only one that calls myself that but at least I have the title. I guess so anyway
A teacher can only do so much for the student. Mostly just show them the basics. Some call these basics the "rules" . A sad term but more than half way true.
A good parable would be the art classes most of us had in school.
First we learned the color wheel. Blue and yellow makes green etc.
Then later on we learned the term perspective. Probably from a different teacher.
After that came the Art appreciation classes most of us suffered through in college.
These things are taught by teachers. Simple but, important things.
The student must teach himself how to combine all this to make "art".
So does the student need to experiment. You bet. They need to teach themselves what colors to use, in what order, under what circumstances .
In the final lap, the student will always be the best teacher. Most will learn from their mistakes. All the teacher can show them is the mistakes that have been made previously by others. A smart student will teach themselves not to repeat those mistakes.
After all the wheel has already been invented. Why bother doing it again.
Take the sum total of what you are taught and expound on it. Run away with that knowledge.
Just be sure that you know that blue and yellow does not make plaid. Some of those teachers will try to convince you of that ;o)

agraham

Al,

Experimentation is one thing....ignoring wisdom gained over the years is another,I won't comment on the multi teacher thingy because i don't know enough about the particulars in this case to do so.....perhaps Andy R. should not have for the same reason.

You're a carpenter,a craftsman and an artist....would you watch a friend use the wrong tool,or use one improperly and say nothing?would you watch a friend use the wrong joining method,knowing that it would come apart in a short period of time?or would you share the knowledge gained by your own experience and study?Would you watch someone nail a sheet of plywood to two 2X4's and let him think it was an elegant and noteworthy bonsai stand?

Lessons are learned in many ways.....sometimes(if we are smart enough and humble enough)we can learn from others without going through and making all the mistakes made by others through the years.

Learning definitely comes with a price....Dedication takes time,patience and much effort....we can say we learn from our mistakes,but mistakes are not necessary to learn.

andy