Leaf size / tree height ratio

isospin

Hello All,

I been browsing Vertree's excellent guide to Japanese Maples and have found several cultivars that I think would make interesting bonsai. The palmatums I'm considering all have widely different adult leaf sizes. This got me thinking; does anyone know of a rule of thumb to correlate (maximally reduced) leaf size with tree height(or branch thickness) such that the two are in proportion and suggest a mature specimen? I've seen other developmental guidelines, such as the "1/6 rule" for trunk caliper vs. tree height and the application of the Golden Ratio to determine branch placement, but haven't found any suggestions regarding leaf size aside from "they shouldn't be too big". I understand that a leaf size-tree height rule is probably most useful for deciduous species and would likely vary amongst species, given their different leaf shapes, but maybe someone knows of an effective ratio I could use to help ensure a large enough tree for my palmate leaves?

Thanks,
Isospin

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Attila

Hi Isospin,


There is no such thing as a rule of thumb for leaf-size/tree hight ratio. For one, every species has a different ratio in nature, so we could not set one ratio to cover all species used for bonsai.

Then, the size of bonsai is also a factor. For very small or small bonsai, a leaf or a compound leaf cand be used to represent a whole branch or an entire foliage pad.

It also depends on the image or view you want to create. If you strive for a more distant view, obviously the leaves have to be smaller than in case you want to show a close-up.

So, each species, each size, each design would have a different optimal ratio. Add to this your personal preference, and you've got an infinite number of solutions.

There is only one guideline: the smaller the leaves, the better. Conversely, if your leaves are too large, you will have a more difficult time to create a convincing bonsai.

Regards,
Attila

Carl_Bergstrom

This is a really interesting question, and a really interesting topic for discussion.

When I started in bonsai, I felt that small leaf size was absolutely critical for the illusion. I've backed off of that impression a great deal. My sense now ius that leaf size doesn't need to be small to produce a very convincing bonsai, because you aren't trying to make a scale model of a tree so much as an artistic suggestion of a tree. Think about some of the great Japanese black pine bonsai. The needles would be at least two feet long if the tree were to scale. And yet it doesn't bother the eye at all.

Just as one can paint a canopy with a few suggestive brush-strokes, one can "paint" a tree with even a few relatively large leaves if they are placed properly.

Of course there are extremes - some of the large compound leaves just seem to big. The foot-wide leaves of our native large-leaf maple really are on a big side

By and large, my feeling is that leaf size is not nearly as much of an artistic challenge as is internode length. The hardest thing about working with large-leaved species is the long internodes and coarse growth that seems to go hand in hand with large leaves.

---

The other part of your post is very interesting to me as well. I'm also playing with a couple of dozen differnet Japanese maple cultivars, exploring their potential for bonsai. Which cultivars are you considering? At present, some of the ones with the best bonsai potential seem to be the traditional favorite A. p. `Shishigashira', the tight internodes of `Mikawa yatsubusa', and the general growth habit of the dwarf form `Yurihime'.

Best regards,
Carl

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Jerry Meislik

Carl,
I think your ideas are right on and I would like to hear more discussion on this matter.
One interesting fact is that some of the very small leaf cultivars like Hokaido, never seem in scale to me. So leaves can be too small.
Jerry

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thejimmyrigger

I have to agree that the hokaido are just too small, the more i've looked at seiju it has also begun to be a bit too mini for me. A young shoot looks more fernish than branch. But, on the other hand I wouldn't mind having an hokaido as a novelty over a true bonsai. I also wouldn't mind using it in a small landscape display.

Though, reducing leaf size helps to match the tight internode space (on larger specimens). A full sized leaf on a tree with 1/3 sized internodes would get cramped looking, and the full sized petiole-assuming the species has big ones- would really throw off the illusion. I think the laeves would sit way too far away from the branches- especially secondary and tertiary branches. Ultra fine twiggy growth might end up as big as the petiole itsef. On a mame, where a leaf can represent a 1/3 of the canopy, I suppose it would really depend on the tree and species itself. Then that full sized petiole could add 30 "feet" to the tree's appearance.

Then like you said Carl, say your working with a big leaved native, you'ld have to fight the leaf/internode size down as much as physically possible. Coarse growth is often really fast growth so that maple could really capitalize on sacrifice branches.


jim

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isospin

Thanks, everyone, for weighing in.

Carl, the two larger leaf cultivars I'm interested in are Osakazuki and Ichigyogi. Vertrees' notes that the adult leaves of both may grow to 14x18cm. Even if I can obtain a 60% leaf size reduction I know I'll have to plan on growing large trees in order for the composition to be believable. I'm not sure on how large to aim for, though. Their internode lengths will make this a tough row to hoe, but I can't resist. I was hoping to use them in a two-tree design, highlighting that the varieties are identical in all respects but their contrasting fall colors.

-- isospin

vance hanna

Hi Jerry, Isospin, Carl and Jerryrigger,

This is an interesting discussion. I've defaulted to the same conclusions many years ago:

Thought once that 'mini trees had to have mini leaves'...Well that might be so for mini trees.

But we're talking about bonsai. Lord I'll not forget (name withheld) when she came into the club and showed everyone her 'bonsai'. A great bonsai instructor, now passed on, Dean Atkinson was kind enough to try to explain, although she had a nice planting, it was not bonsai. This devastated the 'newbie' and yet, she's stuck it out and become a real advocate during the last ten years in this club!!



Dean's critique was centered on leaf size, composition, branch placement, pot size/scale/color and dimensions etc.



This is where it's at folks. An illusion.



Ah, the illusive nature of bonsai!!

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fine bonsai take time

Carl_Bergstrom

Hi Jim,

I think this depends largely on the way that the leaves lie. The Acer palmatum cultivar `Mikawa Yatusubusa' has very tight internodes, but normal-sized leaves and petioles. Since the leaves fall together in tight layers, this actually gives a lovely appearance. I think this cultivar could be used to great effect for bonsai. I don't have a "finished" one, so I can only share this picture of a piece of rough stock that I picked up last year.

Best wishes,
Carl

Attached Images

2004_10_motherplant_small.jpg (41.4 KB, 46 views)

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Carl_Bergstrom

Osakazuki is one of my favorite cultivars. I love the shape and color of the leaves, even - or perhaps especially - in the summertime. I've attached a few pictures below. The first two show its summer green. The last one shows its autumn red. (The red leaves in the background of the first shot are from A. palmatum `Moonfire'.)

I haven't tried it as bonsai material, yet, though. I'll be interested to see how it goes for you.

Thanks for tipping me off to Ichigyoji. Sounds like a great cultivar. I'll be on the lookout for that one.


Best wishes,
Carl

Attached Images

	Osakazuki_Moonfire_small.jpg (72.3 KB, 18 views)
	Osakazuki_closeup_small.jpg (57.9 KB, 21 views)
	10_02_Osakazuki_red_leaves_small.jpg (68.6 KB, 17 views)

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