Just a silly question.

RonMartin(deceased)

Just a silly question.
As they say in those mystery novels " It was a dark and dreary day". But no one got murdered I just got bored. For me boredom brings forth silly questions. Well silly to everybody else but burning questions for me ;o)
It rained all day so working out side was out of the question. I spent time cleaning the garage but soon tired of that. Turned on the computer and looked for new posts on this forum. Nothing. (Earlier today anyway.)
Big let down that was. Then I happened to look up and see the word "search" on the basic page of this forum.
Cool I thought and started popping words in that box. Soon found out that on this forum search means looking up of all things bonsai topics. But being a big boy I persisted. Went through all my usual search words. (yes Babbett was among them but by all means this wasn't the only word)
Finally decided on the word CRITIQUE. I know a boring word, no tassels or anything associated with that word but, it did work.
I spent most of the afternoon reading critiques. Not just any critiques but those that many of you have posted.
Some good some not so good and some just plain ..(better not go down that road. )
Bet all of you are waiting for that big profound question. The true meaning of bonsai and all that sort of thing. Not wanting to disappoint any one here goes.
Almost all the critiques that I read had one thing in common. "You need more movement in the trunk" More than 50% of the comments had something to do with this.
Now here is the big question. One that might just change the world, create massive jumps in the advancement of our art. Do all kinds of good things.
You ready.
Here it is.
What ever happened to the formal upright.
Bet this question is a big letdown. Not one bit exciting. But I think it is a good question.
Has this style fallen out of vogue ? Is it too hard of a style to do ? Or is it just so butt ugly. Just why does no one on this forum seem to like it, let alone make one.
I love Friday nights. This question will fester here all weekend. Those that post from home will read it and post something. Those that post at work wont even know about it till Monday. You guys will be late but what the heck. Better late than never ;o)
Comments ! ! !

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jo schmoo

i don't know ron. i would say formal upright is "out" because informal upright allows for more creativity. sure it's good to see an informal upright but it's hard to beat a good formal upright because people know how much work goes into creating a good formal upright. i don't know why people don't use this style more often when most trees are naturally straight upright. hmm, good question, Ron.

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ianb

Dunno Ron, to me I think the formal upright when done well is an excellent style, however it is a very difficult to find the right material. Probably alot of the comments about movement are refering to trees that already have some slight movement and so are not candidates for a formal upright.

Just my tuppence worth

Cheers
Ian

Jay

Ron, to my limited knowledge, Formal Upright is the most demanding style. There is little room for straying from the 'rules'...(yes I said rules) and the if there is some movement or some slant it is no longer Formal. Stock is harder to find or harder to style.... but the results are WONDERFUL....
just my two cents
Jay

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breefe

I agree completely and theres not much space to "wander" in the style...

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bonsaial1

It's hard enough just trying to find good stock for an informal tree, where I have wiggle room for some flaws. Now you want to throw a wrench in the game by trying to find good formal stock. Good luck!

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Attila

1. Time.
2. Technique
3. Imagination.

A formal upright needs a lot of the above. Any good bonsai needs them, but formal upright needs them even more.

1. As the previous posts suggested, it's hard to find good stock in advanced stage of development. If not specifically trained for this purpose, by the time a stock reaches the advanced age of six years (time for elementary school), the faults are overwhelming.
First, you have to grow your own stock, and then you have make it into a good bonsai. People don't have the patience to do all that.

2. Growing great potensai for this style requires specific techniques. It has nothing to do with styling, wiring, and the rest of the basic stuff. It is not taught in too many places, and although some bonsai books address the issue, it mostly develops with personal experience. So, most of the people have no clue how grow grow such material.

3. Formal upright doesn't have an interesting trunk shape. People find it easier to take a twig and twist it back and forth and as soon as they achieved an S shape they feel that they created a bonsai. Working with straight trunk and straight branches requires a more refined sense of shapes, forms, forced perspective and other tricks.

And finally, every bonsai must have dominant features which make the tree interesting. A formal upright must have a great nebari (good is not enough), great taper and outstanding branch structure.

Very few bonsai have all of these, while creating the impression of a straight trunk.
Personally, it's my favourite style. Maybe because it's such a challenge. But also because a good one looks very powerful.

Good thread,
Attila

Alasdair

I think that the problem with formal upright is that it takes soooooo long. If u decided to take the long, straight, tapering road to this style, you end up starting with a twig. In a pot. With a few alternating branches. That is, if you can actually find something worth it in the first place. Then it takes many years for the trunk to fill out, for your nebari to become worth while and for the whole image to becom majestic. People today just dont have the patience, well, i say...

BE PATIENT!

i like the style and am working on some miniature formal uprights at this time. And i believe that in ten years time, the wait will be worth it. This style is imposing and beautiful, it has the presence and power to make grown men cry if done properly. lets do it properly.

bonsaikc

The formal upright has lost some favor in Japan, or so I have read. Some styles go out of fashion, others come in. Unfortunately, it seems that many formal uprights are being restyled as something else, so the actual number of them is dwindling. The real answer to your question, though, Ron, is yes, proper material is virtually impossible to find without starting from scratch, and of the trees you read critiques for, all were probably anything but formal upright and needed more movement in the trunk.

Chris

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Chris Johnston
Sashi-no-eda.blogspot.com

Kansas City Area Workshops 2008