Is it Japanese or Chinese

Craig Cowing

Works for me.

Craig Cowing

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I'm not finished yet, neither are my trees.

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RedPine

Some aspects of Penjing I see is the use of mudmen or creatures like dragons and cranes.Mudmen are a very important thing for some penjing creations.As I mentioned on another thread a few weeks back these mudmen represent more than just some cool looking grass hut,bird or an old dude with a pipe and they are used to add more than just scale.The faces of most of the mudmen we see are famous Taoist heros in China,historical men or mystics from their history and religions.In China there are meditation huts, pavilions, bridges and the like throughout the great mountains and certain immortals are associated with these certain things aswell.One very well known is the chess pavilion located on Hu Shan.Just out in the middle of nowhere miles and miles above sea level it sits .One legend is it was used by 2 immortals to have a chess game for the right of ownership over the mountain and it's students.So I don't mind and can even understand the use of those little tacky sculptures and cranes in the pieces, it bears cultural significance and I get it.

In the gallery there is some fine examples of dragon trees.In China the dragon is the top of the food chain as far as using animals as a symbol go.At times in China it has even been illegal for a common man to think about or imagine dragons.Mere superstitions of rulers in old days fearing a public uprising but a good example of the importance of the dragon to the Chinese culture.The dragon represents things like education, imperial power, chivalry, the highest level of moral fiber.The dragon can represent the things in man that are higher than nature.A famous priest,healer or warrior would sometimes be called a "dragon man" as they would reach the pinnacle of their skill or profession. After I became aware that these Chinese dragons I would see in art magazines and the like actually stood for and ment somthing the Penjing picture became a little clearer.This same high opinion of dragons made it's way into Japan as well.

When I see a Penjing forest planting with moose or dear drinking from a brook and a trail going through the trees up and around them I don't just think of a little nook in the woods with some wild life.I think of the old stories of fathers and grandfathers taking their young men for walks to study the nature and animals.Many times a young man of appropriate age would learn about the "birds and bees" by being shown the frolics of deer or taken to a near by pond to observe a crane and to study it's ways and beauty.When I see the water trays with the large stones and the tiny junipers growing from the nook and crannies I think of the chain of mountains named the dragons back and the like.

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shibu

The landscape compositions that we call penjing are not the only examples of Chinese bonsai, or pensai.

Chinese trees are different to penjing. They are usually more sparse than Japanese trees. They often employ more stripped bark; fewer and smaller branches and often much more trunk movement.

Even a Chinese formal upright is different, and may often be a twin cone design, with two sets of branches, the first shortening in as though to an apex, with another set above that.

Chinese pensai also produces a lot more trees that we might regard as literati style.

When they go for a fuller style, it's more like the trees one sees in nature, with bushy crowns and twisting trunks.

As the comment above said so succinctly: Chinese is realistic, Japanese is idealistic.

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RedPine

Someone will have to explain to me how this example of Chinese penjing/pensai fits into the statement above.This seems to be a work based soley on the unreal and mystical...not very realistic.It always seemed to me the big argument with Penjing was it isn't realistic enough like with the comments regarding the windswept styles,trunk lines bent into the wind and etc....

Attached Images

dragonsais~1.jpg (33.4 KB, 36 views)

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susieq

I have another comparison to make..... It shows the main difference between the asthetics of the two nationalities.....
Goldfish. Yep. Just look at the differences between the Japanese and the Chinese varieties. The Japanese types are more natural, with vary few "grotesque" features. The Chinese varieties are the ones with the telescoping or bubble eyes, the Lion headed varieties, etc.......

Not to put down either one....I like and respect them all but it does show the difference in the two tastes of style.
I have seen Penjing that sort of fit this theory also. It seems to be down to asthetics....and I sure hope I spelled that right.
susieq

Cordon

Redpine, I think you may be focusing too much on the animal forms of peijing/pensai. Not all chinese trees look fantastical, and not all Japanese trees are idealized forms of natural trees. This topic seems to be headed in the direction of one style being superior to the other... I hope I can head that off.

If you have examples of differences then please post them. I believe they will help us all

Cordon

http://www.venuscomm.com/renaissance.html

This is an interesting article about the rebirth of chinese penjing it might be usefull in this discussion

zen

As simply as I can i'd like to toss in my two cents on the subject,...well more like 1 and 1/4 cents but here goes.
While Japanese bonsai does have some very stylistic styles and forms the emphasis is more usualluy on the "objective" (the tree/trees being a closer reflection of nature) while the Chinese style seems to me to be more stylistic still, and is based more on the "subjective" (less a reflection of nature and more of an artistic explaination of what a particular "image" fom nature "means" to the artist and is conveyed by the composition, and hopefully, if done well, envokes or evokes this, or a closely related, emotional response in the veiwer).

Well that's the basis of my take on the whole thing. It really all comes down to a couple of things,...Love and trees.

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mike_p

Quote from the excellent article by Karin Albert:
" If art is the language of the soul, isn’t that what both bonsai and penjing should be all about?"
Copy this Nail it to the wall. Commit it to memory.

Mike

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